Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

This is not at all close to the situation we were confronted with. Let's dispense with the fun little hypos and stick with the facts.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Let me suggest that if we view them as being dispensable, we are in the process of losing the the fight. If we truly believe we can torture people under any circumstances and that such behavior should be condoned by society, what basic human dignity is left? We have tossed it aside in the name of expedience.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

This discussion isn't about the current situation. You have made it that way because it is convenient for you to do so.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

The one guy caught in Pakistan- the no. 3 guy- supposedly has given up a good deal of info that rooted out cells here and in Europe. assume he was tortured to give up the info (I do). Is that acceptable because he clearly had good info? Does it matter that it was likely Paki agents doing the torture (ie is it just that we're above it)?

Should we take a "fruit of the poisened tree" approach to torture-induced info?

Whether ex-car mechanics from des Moines should have been molesting prisoners isn't at issue. They shouldn't have, but where we are at in the world right now- at least strains some of those old rule, i think.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

I certainly agree with your second point, on the large moral difference between authorizing a thing and failing to stop a thing (assuming said failure was inadvertent and/or negligent rather than reckless or willful). Most of the incidents we've heard of to date, particularly those involving the regular infantry and/or reserve/NG units (i.e. folks not well-trained/prepared for the job) seem to fall into that category.

That said, "failing to stop a thing" which one should stop (or minimize) can be a significant failure -- as I think it was not only in Abu Ghraib but in too many instances in this campaign and related efforts. (After all, its all one big War on Terror -- right?)

On your first point -- that they took discretion not given by the command -- that's probably true wrt Abu Ghraib and (like I said) most other incidents.

What troubles me most, though, Bilmore are the indications we have seen that there are individuals and/or units -- including some who floated in and out of Abu Ghraib - who _have_ been given that discretion to torture and kill prisoners.

In my view, too many bodies have been and continue to be turning up, reportedly in connection with "contractors" or "other government agencies" or SOF, for it to fall into the category of "shit happens without some direction from above." There are too many little news blurbs about investigations begun months and years after the fact that go nowhere, or are closed with a finding or no misconduct despite prisoner deaths. Remember the congressional testimony wrt Gitmo a couple years back that "the gloves are off now"? Once you take them off its hard to get them back on.

S_A_M

P.S. I don't go nearly as far as Taxwonk on the prosecution issue -- but I really think that if the Abu Ghraib troubles had not been so politically incendiary (and the CO had not been so aggresssive and media-savvy), the military sure as hell would have done much worse to General Karpinski. Like it or not (and I think its mostly good), senior commanders are held accountable for such complete breakdowns of discipline in their units, especially when there are systemic problems up and down the chain as Taguba noted. She wasn't even relieved of command.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

That's just nuts.

S_A_M

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Are you at all concerned here with your/our soul?

I am glad you use the term "we" and "us" throughout your posts, because (I believe) it means you agree with me that whatever is done is being done not by a few individuals whom we can wash our hands of, but by "us", whether directly or indirectly.

I believe there are acts done under stress and in crises that can be and should be forgiven, but cannot imagine us as a country deciding that torture is what or who we are. If we torture to protect "civil rights" or "human dignity", we are simply choosing to destroy those things ourselves rather than let others destroy them.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

I am claiming that, in the context of a war, the claims of torture I've seen are a relatively small deal. I think I've typed that word "context" several times.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

The current situation is that the military is stonewalling on providing information regarding abuse of prisoners. If the military was truly interesting in clearing the air, they would not be doing this.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

I think this is a idealistic view.

no wonder . . .
 

In more critical, timely news, Judge Greer (of Schiavo fame) was once a roommate of Jim Morrison.

I was trying not to post this, but I can't not . .
 

Doll mistaken for alien

A burnt rubber doll was mistaken for a badly injured alien and taken to a hospital in Brazil.

It happened after people in Aracruz found a burnt 'body' on the ground after seeing a fireball fall from the sky.

A police spokesman told Terra Noticias Populares: "Many people were terrified thinking that an alien invasion was taking place.

"They thought the doll was a burnt ET and more than 50 people called the station."

The 'alien' was taken to the local hospital where doctors soon confirmed it was a burnt rubber doll.

A hospital spokesman said: "It was obviously a practical joke but we wonder who would do that in such a small and quiet town."

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

I'm concerned with winning. Everything else is just theory. My soul would not be very happy living in a dictatorship.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Does someone have a Church Lady sock (or does this reference just show my age)? Eternity is a long time, and the guy with the horns is quite a dictator.

I thought we were talking theoretically. I find that as long as we are talking theoretically, it's much easier to be idealistic.


(By the way, as I catch up, I must say I am pretty offended by the Terri Schiavo socks, which I'm sure was intentional. I trust everyone here does realize that just because someone is born again, it doesn't mean we froth at the mouth).

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

I believe (perhaps through experience) in hell on Earth, but not in the afterlife.