Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

One of my Trump relatives posted a video purportedly from Sarah Saunders asking people to rally behind the cause of freeing someone convicted of killing a Muslim refugee who raped his 7 year old sister.

Doesn't that kind of say everything we need to say about "conservatives" today?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

How does one know what voters with racist views think? Exit polling? Phone surveys, "do you think Sharia law is in place in some cities in Michigan?... You do? Can we talk about how you voted in the presidential election?"

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

How does one know what anyone thinks? People can't even agree what racism is.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Well I openly discuss my feeling here, not elsewhere, but here. But if some guy is asking randoms, I would expect admitting racist feelings actually means the problem (assuming one sees that as a problem) is worse, as a high percentage of people with the feeling might like to keep their ugly little secret?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

The system is not rigged to discriminate against Blacks. Parts of it are, and in certain geographic areas, far more so than others. And bigots infect the systems you cite as much as they infect any other system.

But I can't agree that there is an active "system" at work the primary goal of which is to advantage any group over another.

What you are talking about are persistent vestiges of a system that are damn hard to eradicate. That's a much different statement than the accusation that the system is still designed to effect racist ends.

BUT, huge caveat here: The War on Blacks (there's no flippancy intended there; that's factual) and our justice system, which grossly emphasizes broken windows crime over white collar crime, are designed and implemented to jail and marginalize Black people -- even more so, poor Black people (and poor people generally). These are systems that remain indefensible, and only exist to effect racist aims.

My views of Sessions are well known here. If I'd the cure for cancer and he was Stage 4, I'd ignore him. I did not expect Trump to seriously use the racist Nixon "law n' order" shit if he someone hit the lottery and actually got elected. I made a mistake in that assumption. And, I was not aware of his Central Park 5 position when I voted.

I've actually dealt with this issue up close. I advocated for humane treatment of prisoners in a policy situation where, for reasons I won't get into here, I had some say. The public is very anti-prisoner. Very pro-tough-on-crime. Both D and R. They don't give a fuck about these people. The aim is to spend minimal dollars on rehabilitating people in jail, and taking a cruel position actually garners one votes.

No one with any power to do something about justice reform gives a fuck because politicians don't make it an issue, as it will make them look weak, and ex-cons have no say. They're subhumans to the average voter. YMMV. But I learned this, the hard way.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

In half a dozen words or less. "It's a big tent. Cognitive dissonance." Next?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

This is a third rail. I think anti-Muslim nonsense is xenophobia. Racism here is racism against African Americans.

This is a very unpopular position among white liberals.

I hold to it. Racism, here, is a unique thing. It should not be diluted to include religious persecution.

Mel Gibson's rant about Jews was not racism. It was xenophobia, religious hatred, and cultural bigotry. His later rant about Blacks was racism.

Given that scientifically, the term "racism" as applied to anyone is inaccurate, I'd like to retire it. Except that in context, here, it now stands for hatred of African Americans. In this regard, it should be preserved. And it should describe, at least here, mostly, if not entirely, a phenomenon where people discriminate against and hate others based on African genetic background. (Which heritage of course includes all of us... but that's just "science' again, and you get the point.)

I've never been comfortable with anti-Muslim or anti-Semitic behavior being lumped into the category of racism. It's lazy and strikes me as an attempt to opportunistically expand the term.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You should just stop typing now.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

This defines all political parties in the US:

"What conservatism is, then, is a politics of privilege for a mass democratic age."

Conservatism is reactionary. Progressive politics is insurgent. In either case, you've elites, despite their endless profuse denials of that status, asserting "We speak for the common man, whose best interests we serve."

Yin/Yang.

Trump is an interloper only to the extent he bought himself the seat selling a populist narrative. But judged by policy, rather than Tweets, he seems garden variety conservative for the moment.

The Sam Harris/Scott Adams podcast on Trump is brilliant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReKIJvOJDrs It's long, and Adams might be truly amoral, but it unpacks everything about Trump that people argue about endlessly. (I love Harris, as he has a "no gotcha questions" rule. Makes interviews and debates so much more candid.)

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You haven't had anything useful to say since 2005. Tell me the same joke again, canned wit.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You seem angry.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Don't bore me.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Do you see a difference in wrong between racism against blacks, and xenophobia (?) ala Mel Gibson against Jews? I get the Jewish people have overcome more of the original hate than blacks, but as to the haters, do we have to modify our dislike based upon that factor?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You realize with this as the standard Flower cannot post anymore. Adder must retire too. And Ty? Well.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It's all equally wrong. But discrimination against Blacks is a culturally unique thing in this nation. Here, "racism" has a special context.

Some asshole claiming Muslims are subhumans is a religious bigot.

These distinctions aren't trivial. The nation has a duty to undo the persistent impacts of racism. It also has a duty not to allow xenophobia to take hold against Muslims. But the former, I'd say, is a much heavier lift.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I have the Onion and Fuckjerry on my Instagram feed. (And I read Borowitz.) I get Flower's jokes a day before he posts them. He can retire.

As for his shrill shit, I talk news with soccer moms and professors at the gym now and again. I'm up to speed.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Oh gosh, you really *are* angry.

It's . . . delicious.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Needs spice.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It absolutely is. It very explicitly was - via federal government policy - in the not too distant past and next to nothing has been done to level the playing field.

Sure, the explicit policy is gone. You think it has no lingering effects?

Oh, and btw, we have zoning that effectively continues those policies too.

What do you think the War and Drugs and mass incarceration are?

Well okay then. Sounds like an active system to me.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Ah yes, an evil scheme to label more things as racism. Once we do that, we'll all be rich!

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Thus raising the question of whether there could be a conversation among two people I'd less like to hear.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You are, of course, missing the point. Anyone with half a brain would assume you were doing it purposefully, but I'll give you the "benefit" of the doubt.

All of the institutions I listed above were originally designed to benefit white people either (i) at the expense of black people or (ii) purposefully to oppress black people. That is not debatable. What remains are systems that continue to benefit white people at the expense of black people (sometimes purposefully--see: voter repression).

Your recharacterization of this issue into one in which you imply critics of these systems are claiming that there is one 'active "system" at work the primary goal* of which is to advantage any group over another' is intentional misdirection. And it's because you (and yes, I me you) would rather not deal with the fact that these institutions work the way they do. Whether it's your guilt that you benefit from it or your intellectual laziness in not wanting to address the actual criticism is not my problem. But every time you do it, here or at cocktail parties, someone should point out how full of shit you are.

If you--and you're a highly educated person no matter how much evidence you spew to the contrary--can't discuss the topic reasonably, your response is Exhibit I in the overwhelming mountain of evidence that tells every person of color that white people will not take any action to remedy the current state of affairs because they will not give up the benefits they receive. They won't even talk about it. They will either outright deny it exists or reframe the discussion into one they can easily deny (e.g., "There's no racist conspiracy," "There isn't one system," "It's not the primary goal," "We need a smoking gun," etc.).

Agreed. But I wouldn't focus so tightly on "broken windows" policing. The whole criminal justice system benefits white people and disadvantages black people.

Are you actually admitting that this statement is flat-out wrong, then?:

"I think most people reconcile it with, 'The Democrats won't do much different in re justice reform.'"

We are talking about the justice system, remember? You said, "Nobody gives a fuck about justice reform because nobody gives a fuck about victims of the justice system." You have now narrowed your focus to prisons. And you have still failed to define the class of people you're talking about when you say, "No one cares."

People most certainly care about the injustices inherent in the justice system. And this is a good opportunity to show you how racist institutions affect your perception.

The people who care and who are most affected have had their voices muted as a result of (i) socio-economic disadvantages as a result of historical second-class citizenship (and that's shorthand for a whole bunch of shit), (ii) their power at the voting booth being diminished through rampant voter repression, and (iii) the general racist attitude by whites who have segregated themselves from black people to levels higher than the era of actual, state-sponsored segregation that black people are more prone to crime and are generally more dangerous.

If your definition of "nobody" consists of white people who are discussing whether or not this issue is a political winner in suburban PA (or almost anywhere, really), I don't know what to tell you. I guess, you're right? But that conclusion, absent the rest of the conversation about why that is, seems fairly insignificant doesn't it?

TM

*You must have known that this stupid fucking trick wouldn't work, right? Does it ever work for you?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You may have broken a record for the most Sebby post of all time.

"I think anti-Muslim nonsense is xenophobia.'
"Racism here is racism against African Americans."
"This is a very unpopular position among white liberals."
"...the term "racism" as applied to anyone is inaccurate..."
"...I'd like to retire [the term, 'racism']"
Racism in America "in context, here, it now stands for hatred of African Americans"

You're nuts. I mean, straight up wackadoo.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

What are you talking about? Are you saying that our institutions were based on The Peculiar Institution, so we have a different relationship with racism against Blacks than other countries? Or are you saying we are the only nation that discriminates against Blacks?

Come on. You don't really believe that whenever those words are spoken, the Muslim conjured in that person's mind isn't a brown person despite the fact that Muslims come in all colors, do you? In this country?

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

So the portraits, I'm not sure how I feel about the President's, but I think Michelle's a mistake. These things started as a way to preserve people's appearances for history. Of course that purpose went away with color photography.


Still, in a hundred years people will be walking through the First spouse* gallery looking at realistic painting after realistic painting. Then here is this pretty abstract representation. And of the most youthful attractive first lady since Jackie Kennedy. I'd have gone with a realistic look.

As to the President's, the lightness will certainly stand out as one walks down the line of paintings, but that fits his persona?

*By then we will have to have had a first gentleman, maybe even a gay couple?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I will say this: Strategically, it is unwise to characterize things as racist when discussing racist shit with white people. They cannot handle it. They completely shut down and you spend the next 5-10 years talking about:

• whether or not they are racist
• whether or not what they did or think actually amounts to racism
• whether an action is intentionally racist, and if it's not, whether that means it's racist
• what they know to be true in their heart about themselves
• if they are good people
• how many black people they know
• your sensitivity levels
• that one time a black person got something that that person believed they deserved
• why you're so focused on race
• whether or not you're "playing the race card" to get some kind of benefit somehow
• how their parents had a hard life
• etfuckingcetera

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

How do I know the "system" is "rigged" to favor whites?

Because when I sit in hiring meetings otherwise well intentioned people have questions about candidates from towns or cities they're less familiar with (e.g., not suburbs) or favor those who share their preferences in everything from sports to stores to shop in to churches to schools to cultural organizations. Because the person hiring doesn't know much about black colleges or how to compare them with "their" schools. Because they get really excited about someone who was on the sailing team at their old school. Or someone who comes from a "good" family (e.g., they know someone who knows someone who knows them). Because there are a hundred other ways in daily interactions about decisions that are important that someone (such as hiring), especially if that someone comes from a city (where most African American people in the north live) or a rural southern community (where a lot of African American people in the South live), treat people more as curiosities than candidates.

To suggest otherwise is to be ignorant of the world around you, to not realize what is happening at meetings you attend. To suggest otherwise deserves ridicule.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

This is SOoooooooooo fucking true. Someday you and I need to have a coffee and I need to get help strategizing about how to keep trying to eliminate the segregation in some of the institutions I deal with. You should have seen the look on one of my employment law partners faces when I told him I thought we all had to admit we are at least influenced by racism, even him and even me.

I debate constantly right now whether it is time to scream "Enough. Stop being Racists." because the incrementalism really hasn't worked at all, for example, over the last 20 years in Boston law firms. Or whether that is just going to shut down anyone from listening. I've been doing more of the "Enough." lately than I used to.

I have been lucky enough to have hired and worked with a very diverse group of associates over the years. I have seen the barriers faced by those of them of color or who are women. It really pisses me off every day.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I think the whole point was to eschew tradition to accentuate the break from the link. I think they're both beautiful.

A tip: Do not ask any black people you know about this unless, out of the blue, they tell you they don't like those portraits. I know it's completely innocuous, but any criticism of the decision by the first black President to use two black artists to paint portraits that will sit in the fucking White House, will get you side-eye I don't think you're ready for.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I am the only black partner at my firm. I am one of three attorneys. The other day I organized a client panel in Boston with an amazing group of speakers (black and white) from companies we would love to get business from about the state of the market when it comes to inside counsel's expectations when it comes to outside counsel. One of the administrators who help set it up ran into a partner who didn't attend and said, "Hey! You missed a great panel." The partner said, "Yeah, I'm not a diversity kind of guy." Wasn't joking. Didn't care how it was taken.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

We had someone say in an associate meeting, when asked by a non-white associate about diversity, "who has time for diversity". I could have strangled her. Claims she was joking.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Yeah, although, I wonder whether in the long term white people don't need to hear a lot more about racism so they can go through all of that and maybe approach acceptance. Gotta pick your spots though.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

My new tack is to show them impressive diverse people who are making decisions about who is getting their business. I'm not sure anyone listens to the messages they say about how diverse teams benefit from different perspectives, how it's important to them, etc. But they sure as hell are struck dumb when the GC of a company they'd love to have as a client is Black or Asian.

I'm constantly telling my partners that they need to think about this like they do IT. The market is evolving on this. It doesn't matter what you believe or how you like to work. If you don't change you will be left behind. Hell, they're losing out on business right now and they don't even know it and when they do, they don't know why.

The problem I run into most at a firm my size are the partners who are at the tail end of their career, who have their relationships, who aren't interested in expanding relationships, and who do their work and go home. Those are the people who will bring a firm down. And management of firms with those people are terrified of pushing them too far.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Should have added this one to my bullet point list above.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Looking at the portraits at the White House Historical Association (here: https://www.whitehousehistory.org/ga...lady-portraits ), hers isn't the first to eschew the dusty stereotype. Look at Martha Jefferson, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Jackie Kennedy, for examples. It won't be out of place. It will be distinctive.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

They surely do. They just need to hear it from white people. The problem is, white people don't have these discussions with each other. So when we have to bring it up, it absolutely has to be strategic because whatever we're saying is turned into an attack on their person and the underlying issue is then lost to the universe for all of time and you're now focusing on their feelings.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

My current strategy is to say if stuff doesn't improve I'll go elsewhere.

But I really don't want to, I'd rather fix it here. And most elsewheres are no better.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

If you're striving to generate cognitive dissonance, nicely done.

If Edmund Burke had gone to Paris and said that the ancien regime just wanted to pay lower taxes, no one would have read him them, let alone now.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Your description of progressive politics is basically a conservative talking point. If by "progressive" you mean "Democratic" then there are some elites involved, but by "progressive" you mean (more accurately) the leftie wing of the Democratic party instead of the centrist wing of the Democratic party, equating conservative elites with progressive elites, like saying that 19th century capitalists and Communists were both elites claiming to speak for the common man because Friedrich Engels's father owned a textile mill.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I think Sebby is applying a sort of rigorous intent test, where he's not comfortable calling something out as racist unless it's pretty clear that the intent was explicitly race-conscious. But there are so many ways in which government acts that might not have be designed specifically to disadvantage blacks, but do. For example, blacks tend to live in cities and in the South. Either way, the way that Senators and Representatives are picked underrepresents them. When designed, blacks were kept from voting altogether, so that wasn't the intent but it certainly is the continuing effect. Another, much more concrete (pun-intended) example: When the Robert Taylor Homes were built in Chicago, next to the Dan Ryan Expressway, it was a local government decision to build them as high-rises instead of more traditional buildings, and that decision was made (according to Nicolas Lemann's book) partly so that more of the federal money would go to the contractors. Assume that was the sole intent if you will and argue that it wasn't "racist," but the effects were what they were.

Which is to say, Sebby, that if it makes you uncomfortable to call something "racist" in the absence of the kind of incontrovertible evidence you want, you need to find another word to acknowledge pervasive, systemic, oppressive discrimination.