Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You weren't talking about thwarted career aspirations. You were talking about not being able to behave as you wish solely because of society's judgment.

That you never even have to consider how violence from others, most especially the police and other men, might also influence how you behave is very much a privilege.

Why do you need to deny that?

I do not believe that you bite your lip over this (in part because I wouldn't, while still seeking to be respectful). Yes, being safe to say that is a privilege.

Btw, where the heck are you spending your time that you can't politely say that? The more we talk, the more I get the sense that you're stuck in a suburban hell hole. Get thee to the city, man. Or at least a better suburb.

No, you should do what works for you. Jesus, you think I'm going to scold anyone for the use of mind-altering substances?

But maturity is not doing what you want to do because (1) you realize that your words and actions affect other people and (2) you don't want to harm others. Notice how "being held down by societal pressures" isn't in there. Also notice that when that's the case, you don't really want to do those things.

Everyone, except you, apparently, is constrained by empathy and consequences for self and others, which can include opprobrium. You said you're only constrained by opprobrium.

That you're not also constrained by fear of violence is your privilege showing.

Women typically do not enjoy male privilege, no. This should not surprise you.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

No idea exactly what you two are blathering about, but I think I'm agreeing with Adder that not being "brought to heel" is a privilege. If I didn't have money, I'd probably have to get married -- it's very expensive to live as a single person. If I didn't have access to birth control/abortion etc., I'd probably have a kid. So living my life the way I want to (single, childfree) is achievable because I have money. Since men tend to have the easier path to accumulation of wealth, then there's some male privilege involved there in them being able to live the life they want.

Sebby, have you seen the "I will argue about anyone about anything" meme? I saw it over the weekend and thought of you. I would post it here, but I forget how and also I would probably mess up the margins.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I don't know what they're blathering about either, but I note that in my response to "a lot of men are dumb and think with their pricks" sentiment Sebby took the position, "no we're not we're just naturally hedonists" which response, I think , proves both of my points.

As to your points, 2.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I just think this whole privilege recognition trend is a soft-headed endeavor. It's arbitrary laddering of people.

We all know life is not fair. Rupert Murdoch has a much easier existence than I do. In this regard, he's privileged above me. The plastic surgeon down the street is also privileged above me. I'm privileged above the garbage collector, my kid's teacher, etc. Who cares?

But let's put money aside. Let's talk freedom of speech. I'm licensed. If I do or say certain things, I can be sanctioned in ways the guy who owns the nearby flooring business cannot. Is he more privileged than me?

How about athletic ability. I can't dunk, or hit a fairway wood to save my ass. Are those who can more privileged than me? Magnus Carlson would kill me at chess! Privileged SOB...

In terms of intelligence, I'd like to be able to count cards, or do those equations in my head the way those kids who get jobs at Google can... Should they be required to empathize with me if I demand they recognize their privilege?

I'm not unhappy with my appearance. Do I have an obligation to understand the trials of those who are unhappy with theirs?

I've been told it's quite fine, but I mean... what man wouldn't want it a little bit bigger? (if you've met this man, stick with him.)

A Cuban buddy of mine can swing dance like he was born with the skill. I veer between looking like I'm rocking the "White Man's Overbite" to "Is my partner having a seizure?"

The metrics for privilege are too arbitrary for me to take it seriously except in this very obvious exception: If you're white, you've generally got advantages over other people due to the vestiges of racism and xenophobia in this country.

People love strange/It's Best with a stranger/Everyone's hot/When it's unknown
 

This not being able to think with one's prick thing is at odds with male and female biology.

We are natural hedonists. I very much buy the argument for that from Sex at Dawn.

Love's one thing, but if every now and again you don't wish you had some strange, you are.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Of course you do. What else would you think?

Then what's your objection to thinking about the advantages you enjoy?

Why don't you mention race, gender sexual orientation or religion? You understand that this discussion is about things that are immutable (or close to it), not things like you decided to get a law license, yes?

Nobody gives a crap if you don't make as much money as a surgeon. People do give a crap that unarmed black men face unwarranted violence by the police, for example.

If you don't want to be an asshat, you should probably spend some time thinking about it yeah. Like, "dude, look at how awesomely hot I am" is not a thing you declare in front of your schlumpy buddy, right? Not the biggest issue in the world, but some consideration is in order.

Excellent! Step one. Now, what about if you're male? Straight? Cis-gendered? Not a Muslim or a Jew?

I can't fathom why those issues are less obvious to you.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Of course you can, so don't hold back.

I've never been fond of the term "privilege" myself. It seems like a nice, comfortable way to soften the edges of racism and misogyny.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Society includes economic reality. Society also judges the homeless quite harshly.

I've seen the justice system grind people to shreds. I've also been physically chased by cops.

Because it's silly. Endless numbers of people are privileged above, or underprivileged in relation to, endless other numbers of people when you account for the near endless ways in which privilege can be measured. And who gets to determine what measures we use: Someone pretty privileged. Because deciding the criteria of measurement imparts a hell of a lot of power, which = A hell of a lot of privilege.

Read Twain's The Privilege of the Grave. Speak your mind on religion and politics = Lose business. But you're right... In personal conversations, where I don't need to get something from the person, I'll say what I think.

Atheism is a third rail in the most surprising of places.

Not you, but many people would call that "immature."

Most people refrain from those things based on a cost/benefit analysis. Sorry, but that's humanity. And what you've described is not maturity. What you've described is being empathetic. Those are two very different things. Naivete and empathy run together a lot.

No. I paraphrased you saying that men are only constrained by opprobrium. I am strongly repulsed by actions which hurt others. But people generally, including me, can and frequently do decide to hurt others anyway, because the desire to do something you like is greater than the concern for hurting others (or they think they can get away with it).

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

They aren't the same thing, though. Even the completely non-racist and non-misogynist (yes, those things don't exist) get the advantages of their privilege and thus should (1) be aware of it, (2) seek to use it for good, and (3) be aware that others don't have it.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

What about that makes it silly?

Most it's about self-reflection and recognizing that others don't necessary experience the world in the way that you do.

The supposed need to find a clearly-defined hierarchy is a common but meaningless straw man.

This is where you and I most fundamentally differ. And, oddly, you insist on the classic economics viewpoint.

But I do think your way of thinking is particularly more common among white, relatively affluent, men ;)

Nope. They aren't exactly the same thing, but there's a ton of overlap.

As I can now play the parent card, developing from "I can't do that because it's bad for me" to "I can't do that because I don't want to harm you" is going to be a high priority for Tiny Baby.

That's hilarious.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Is it not possible to recognize that different people enjoy different privileges without arbitrarily constructing a rigid hierarchy (or ladder) of the same?

Wonder Twin powers activate!
 

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Yes. I was doing exactly that.

But nobody's interested in doing that because that renders the issue as diffuse as it should be. And what's diffuse is rarely worth discussing.

People want to discuss racial and patriarchal privilege. They don't want to get into other immutable issues like appearance, intelligence, physical abilities.

It's all too arbitrary. And it's still coupled with the arrogant notion we have a duty to empathize with one another. As much as I might agree with that personally, its an unrealistic and naive goal. It sounds a lot like a new age form of religion.

And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that 300 years from now, this sort of thing is described as an emerging form of humanism ironically quite similar to traditional religion. There's a very Jesusy ring to it all.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Yeah, here's the thing. I like to think I'm pure, perfect and golden, the ideal of a post-imperialist, post-patriarchal, post-post- white dude. But that's really bullshit. I can mansplain with the worst of them if I'm not careful. It's not just some passive bit of privilege we "possess", it is our own original sin that causes us to just keep sinning.

Then, of course, you get to Sebby, who just wallows in that shit. He always wants to burn stuff down, then someone says "Burn down the patriarchy" and suddenly he's grabbing his hose.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

The libertarian is the person who is blissfully unaware that history happened or power differentials exist.

To be fair to that person, but for that stuff, they're right.