LawTalkers - Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Right. Voting solely on the basis of taxes is a system of belief, whether it's out of philosophical objection to taxes or "rational self interest" (which is itself a system of belief).

Tyrone Slothrop

08-28-2017 01:13 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 509802)

Not disagreeing but another problem is that he mostly doesn't know or care how healthcare or the tax code is changed, he just wants to be able to say it changed, which means he's a non-player helping get a deal done.

The GOP is accomplishing nothing because it's a mess and it has no leader.

I agree, but it's not like it's happenstance -- Trump is the culmination of years of GOP thought on healthcare, which has been total disinterest on policy, a preference to cut taxes rather than spend money on things that help average people, a willingness to say anything on the subject for immediate political advantage, and a strong urge to stand for the opposite of what Obama did. They promised people cheaper, better care for years, and never had any way to provide it.

Tyrone Slothrop

08-28-2017 01:16 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 509808)

i·de·ol·o·gy
ˌīdēˈäləjē,ˌidēˈäləjē/
noun
noun: ideology; plural noun: ideologies

1.
a system of ideas and ideals, especially one that forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.

"the ideology of republicanism"
synonyms: beliefs, ideas, ideals, principles, ethics, morals

Grover Norquist is a tax voting ideologue. He's also .01 percent of tax voters. The stockbroker down the street who votes based on taxes so he can put a few more bucks into his retirement account is not an ideologue.

Adder's point, which is so blindingly obvious that you somehow can't see it, is that an ideology of pure self-interest is still an ideology.

A less obvious point is that your self-interested tax voters end up voting for lots of stuff which are not in their self-interest because they are being suckered by a promise of lower taxes.

sebastian_dangerfield

08-28-2017 01:49 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 509811)

Sure, to be an epic timmy, you can argue that any thinking can be an ideology. This would, of course, rob the word of any meaning at all.

A pure tax voter is amoral. He has no basket of notions for which he stands. He is not even voting on multiple considerations. He has one binary aim: Pull a lever that costs less. You're ascribing a level of thinking he has not reached. It's lizard brain voting.

If a pure tax voter has a true ideology, my cat has one. He acts exclusively in furtherance of getting something he wants. He has no belief or broader thought on the implications of his actions beyond the rote calculation of the moment.

Go ahead and call that an ideology if you like. Webster's may back you up. In a conversation with non-lawyer non-twits, however, anyone arguing that tax voters have ideals, or principles, would be met with:

"Shut the fuck up, Ed. You must be drunk off your ass. A tax voter's just voting his pocketbook."

sebastian_dangerfield

08-28-2017 01:54 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 509809)

Right. Voting solely on the basis of taxes is a system of belief, whether it's out of philosophical objection to taxes or "rational self interest" (which is itself a system of belief).

I've pulled the lever in the past based solely on laziness. All things being equal, or not caring enough, why not just vote for probably less taxes?

Is laziness an ideal? A belief? Because I'm thinking of starting a movement... perhaps a religion.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

08-28-2017 02:14 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 509805)

A tax voter has no ideology. This person is acting in the simplest form of rational self interest.

An true ideologue has an "ideal" behind his vote. YMMV, but tax voters tend to simply not want to pay taxes. They're similar to older voters who are dependent on SS, and so vote against anyone they think might cut their benefits. It's transactional.

I can always count on you for some humor in these dark days. Thanks for that.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

08-28-2017 02:18 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 509807)

He had to get HC done to create "savings" to build into the tax reli-- er, "reform" program. Without the former, I don't think he can do the latter.

Richard Rubin's article in the WSJ yesterday is a work of art on the Republican tax reform quandary. Apparently they are still trying to figure out whether they want a waters-edge or world-wide tax system, meaning that they've been so busy politicking they haven't figured out even the basics of what they're politicking about. And of course, everyone is starting to show up to lobby and fill that vacuum.

What a cluster-fuck.

Adder

08-28-2017 02:22 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 509812)

A pure tax voter is amoral. He has no basket of notions for which he stands.

He stands for lower taxes. How is this difficult?

Quote:

He has one binary aim: Pull a lever that costs less. ...It's lizard brain voting.

Yes, that's what makes him an ideologue.

Tyrone Slothrop

08-28-2017 02:43 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 509812)

Sure, to be an epic timmy, you can argue that any thinking can be an ideology. This would, of course, rob the word of any meaning at all.

Quote:

A pure tax voter is amoral. He has no basket of notions for which he stands. He is not even voting on multiple considerations. He has one binary aim: Pull a lever that costs less. You're ascribing a level of thinking he has not reached. It's lizard brain voting.

I understand your notional pure tax voter. I disagree with calling that "immoral." It's a morality. Bentham's utilitarianism is similar.

Quote:

If a pure tax voter has a true ideology, my cat has one. He acts exclusively in furtherance of getting something he wants. He has no belief or broader thought on the implications of his actions beyond the rote calculation of the moment.

Go ahead and call that an ideology if you like. Webster's may back you up. In a conversation with non-lawyer non-twits, however, anyone arguing that tax voters have ideals, or principles, would be met with:

"Shut the fuck up, Ed. You must be drunk off your ass. A tax voter's just voting his pocketbook."

Your cat doesn't have an ideology, and doesn't vote. Your notional pure tax voter takes the irrational step of spending the time and effort to get him or herself to a polling place and wait in line to pull a lever to express a preference that almost certainly will not have any effect on whether or not he or she pays taxes. The number of tied elections is vanishingly small, although I almost voted in one once. I do think acting out of pure self-interest would also be a form of ideology, but I don't think I've ever met a human being who acts that way, so it's a thought experiment. The kind of people you're talking about are acting ideologically and pretending that they're not. Or rather, you're pretending that they're not.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

08-28-2017 02:58 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 509817)

I wasn't, but I suppose you could. "I'm tired, so let's go to the earlier movie." "Oh, you ideologue." Yes, that would be stupid. If you'd care to engage with what people here are actually saying to you, that would be more interesting.

I understand your notional pure tax voter. I disagree with calling that "immoral." It's a morality. Bentham's utilitarianism is similar.

Your cat doesn't have an ideology, and doesn't vote. Your notional pure tax voter takes the irrational step of spending the time and effort to get him or herself to a polling place and wait in line to pull a lever to express a preference that almost certainly will not have any effect on whether or not he or she pays taxes. The number of tied elections is vanishingly small, although I almost voted in one once. I do think acting out of pure self-interest would also be a form of ideology, but I don't think I've ever met a human being who acts that way, so it's a thought experiment. The kind of people you're talking about are acting ideologically and pretending that they're not. Or rather, you're pretending that they're not.

This arguing over definitions is kinda cute in a what-the-fuck-are-we-law-students? kind of way, but the basic way I assess whether someone is an ideologue is whether there is any chance, presented with a rational and practical argument, that they will actually consider it rather than getting lost in their ideologically reductionist worldview.

So if I say to someone, look, one way to improve healthcare is to consider total systemic costs in decision making rather than costs of just one element in the system (e.g., so the hospital doesn't just consider its bottom line, the insurer its bottom line, etc.), and they respond with something like (a) that sounds like it restricts the free market so it must be bad or (b) that sounds like government involvement and I don't want to pay for that or (c) that sounds like single payer healthcare so it has to be good, they are an ideologue. If they say, let's discuss that on the merits and figure out the pros and cons, they are not.

sgtclub

08-28-2017 03:52 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 509815)

The GOP is bankrupt of ideas and morality. It really is as simple as that.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

08-28-2017 04:08 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgtclub (Post 509819)

The GOP is bankrupt of ideas and morality. It really is as simple as that.