Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 532347)

You object to what they've done because you are tired of wearing a mask and you want things to go back to normal. Is that fair?

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 532349)

A day or two ago, you were defending the restaurant owner who went on TV and complained that the problem was the hospitals weren't stocking up on nurses and beds and ventilators.

EVERYTHING is polluted with politics and PR, but I trust the county's health officer to get the balance right in a pandemic more than I trust the guy who want to keep his sushi place open.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 532353)

That's not going to happen. The tango analogy holds. As long as we have progressives demanding things that a majority of the country does not want, we will have crazies on the right reacting in opposition.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 532353)

That's not going to happen. The tango analogy holds. As long as we have progressives demanding things that a majority of the country does not want, we will have crazies on the right reacting in opposition. Which came first? I don't know, and that's immaterial. (I'm of the opinion both extremes have been there all along, like viruses, waiting for the nation's immune system to weaken enough to allow them to emerge.)

But that doesn't mean the country won't normalize. The center is bigger than the poles -- many multiples of the extreme right and extreme left combined. YMMV, but there's a definite sentiment among the GOP in these parts that the age of Trump needs to be put in the rear view mirror. Far in the rear view mirror.

The problem is, Trump and the crazies occupy the media and social media spaces. So they give the false impression they're a powerful majority. It's a mirror of the extreme progressives on the left. Again, YMMV, but most Democrats I know (meaning most people I know) are not progressives. They want a centrist, neoliberal Democratic Party. That's why the moderate Rs and moderate Ds got together and voted for Joe!

Twitter isn't reality. AOC is not queen of the Democratic Party. The social justice nuts are not powerful. They're basement dwelling losers with laptops. The Trump fanatics are not the GOP. They're an angry slice of dead enders with no policy prescriptions. They just want to own the libs.

I say let them own somebody. But not the libs. Leave the libs alone. The libs are moderates. The libs believe in free speech, tolerance, and sanity.

I advocate doing as Leary once suggested: Tuning in, turning on, and dropping out...

...Of social media. And regular media.

Ignore these warring factions. Let Trump nation "pwn" the Progressives. Let them fight to their hearts content on Twitter all day, every day. Let them scream at each other about who can use which bathroom, CRT, and whatever other wedge issue they wish to use as a battlefield. And while they do so, let the sane, sober people in both parties - the adults in the room - run things.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 532354)

No. I have no objection to wearing masks. I'm not kidding when I say I actually like them.

And no -- I don't want things to return to normal. Covid has been a home run in terms of time management, productivity, and economic gain. I've always positioned myself strangely, to capitalize on a sea change. I thought 2008 would be it. It wasn't. But Covid has delivered... and then some.

I'll happily wear a mask, all day, every day.

My objection is general. I don't like the stupid, the performative, or the divisive. If I enter a building and they only require me to wear a mask on the first floor, that's just stupid. Make me wear them on all floors or don't make me wear one. But don't be stupid. Stupid policies normalize stupidity among the credulous compelled to follow them. We can't afford more stupid in this country.

These policies also allow for performative behaviors that we need to eradicate from society. I never wore a mask outside - ever - because, well, unless you're on a crowded street (and there were few of those at the height of covid), that was just stupid. And yet I'd be tsk tsk'ed by some for not being vigilant. Sorry. If you're biking or jogging with a mask on, you're either not terribly literate regarding airborne pathogens, paranoid, or performing. If you're wearing a mask in your car while alone, you need to see a fucking therapist.

The desire to demonstrate that one "followed the science" became a way to telecast one's party, self-perceived status, etc. Vigilance displays. "I'm more careful than you! I'm the bestest person. Gold star for me."

This makes people both annoying and stupid. As annoying and stupid as your cousin in Nebraska who's still refusing the vaccine because four people in Denmark got myocarditis from it (he's "Doing his research with the Google").

This takes me to the last problem I have with dumb policies. They divide. The knuckle draggers decided to give the "libtards" the finger by refusing both vaccines and masks. This of course made an already awful situation worse. But one has to ask, why would people divide so severely that a sector of society would put its health at risk to demonstrate bona fides within a fringe political tribe? I don't know the answer. Low IQ is certainly part of it. Lack of scientific literacy is part of it. Maybe some of it is misinformation. But I think that explanation is overblown.

So I come back to my initial thesis. The cause of idiotic behavior at the political poles is in great part the actions of the opposing poles. The performative on one side fuel the performative on the other.

It's true hatred. And it can only be short circuited by smart, knowledgeable people in the middle ignoring such behavior. No attention for the performative. Not even mockery. You want to tell me why you don't need a mask or vaccine? Fuck off. You want to behave like a paranoid loon, all but wearing a hazmat suit, to show me how virtuous you are? Fuck off.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 532355)

I did not defend his specific statement. I took issue with your reflexively calling him selfish w/o considering he was facing a horrible crisis. I think his criticism of the hospitals was incredibly insensitive and dumb.

I agree with your second point. The sushi guy was wrong. But he was wrong in a moment when he was facing loss of everything (assuming it was pre-PPP). I won't just call him a selfish person. I may give him the benefit of being scared and not thinking straight.

You lived through those early weeks. That was some scary shit. It's not every day one drains all the credit lines to survive through what looked like a financial doomsday. That's a very creepy thing to find oneself doing. Surreal.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 532335)

Yes. Metrics from experts would be great. The problem is there is disagreement over who is a truly qualified expert, and those who are trotted out as experts often say conflicting things from day to day.

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 532337)

A friend of mine died last week from cancer. The surgery to put a shunt in her brain was delayed quite a few times because of the Covid related staffing issues at the hospital. She probably would have died anyways--it was a bitch of a cancer--but that certainly didn't help. We're getting better here in Houston in terms of capacity, but it has definitely been a dicey thing, and the Omicron surge was just as bad, and worse in some ways, than any of the others. Sheer number of total cases meant that there were going to be a higher number of really sick ones.

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 532339)

I actually DO have a degree in public health. Plus have been working in a large academic health center throughout the pandemic, standing up telemedicine practices in weeks that should have taken years, dealing with massive staffing shortages due to illness, opening a vaccination center, yo-yoing with regs regarding vaccination mandates, and doing the daily work of supporting a practice with well over 1500 providers with hundreds of daily patient encounters in clinical and hospital settings.

The interventions that work in public health are the interventions that most people actually will follow. And with respiratory diseases, they always go back to the same thing well over 100 years: wash your hands, stay home when you're sick, wear a goddamned mask, get vaccinated if one comes out. It's been pretty consistent this entire time, aside from the initial masking confusion.

Human beings can be selfish assholes who are terrible at assessing risk, which goes both ways. There are the overly cautious that are practically agoraphobic at this point making visitors quarantine for three days (It used to be a 10!) take a PRC test and verify vaccination before agreeing to an outside lunch of no more than 30 minutes at distance of ten feet. They twitch the entire time. Then, there are the cavalier idiots who have had Covid 3 times and probably killed their grandmother back during Delta, but it could have been church, so why feel guilty? and surely Omicron gave them natural immunity so blathering on about the vaccine makes no sense now. They go to funeral after parties.

Most people are somewhere in the middle. They follow the rules that make sense, ignore the ones that are ridiculous, and seek guidance from trusted sources when they're not sure.

The problem, of course, is "trusted source" has become for some people a perversion. For better or worse, the internet has totally destroyed universal messaging, and public health people were caught off guard because it never occurred to them that there'd be active sabotage of their efforts. They should have known better, because this anti-vax bullshit has been bubbling up for years. OTOH, who the hell would have thought that the White House, would be actively working against public health?

So we end up with dipshits like Joe Rogan becoming "trusted sources", and well regarded researchers like Dr. Hotez having to repel the internet mob because somehow he's supposedly underpants gnome-ing himself rich through vaccine development in the third world.

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 532360)

You're shitting me. Are you this stupid?

Fauci is an expert. The CDC is an expert.

You need degrees, practice, and recognition in your field. IN YOUR FIELD, MORONS, not from Joe Rogan.

The attacks on their qualifications and abilities are repulsive, Do you really want to be a part of that bullshit?

I mean, really, you can't tell who is an expert here? Really?

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 532362)

Just catching up here. Is there a way to make RT's tweets show up twice and often and sebby's show up less? Can we have a "vote up" option?

It would really improve the common sense factor here.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 532364)

Your developing better reading comprehension, which would preclude your arguing against a point that was not made, would be more productive.

And the suggestion you make here - that she and I are in disagreement of some sort - isn’t any more accurate than the misreading that led to your prior post.

I think you assume (or try to state regardless of accuracy) what I’m thinking because that would neatly fit into a binary argument. I’m usually not thinking what you think I’m thinking. And I’m not disagreeing with you.

The public messaging about Covid was a monstrous fuck-up. Much of that was Trump’s fault, but it was also the media’s fault, the experts’ fault, and the fault of two credulous audiences - the unlettered and dishonest skeptics, and the unlettered and annoying virtue signalers.

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 532365)

What about the audiences who, while not unlettered, still engaged in denial and skepticism, claiming (for example) that the virus was not that big a deal, would be nothing more than a mild flu, and would cause at most 2-3,000 deaths in the U.S.? I’m not sure where they fit into your binary argument. Are they blameless? It seems like they should bear more fault than the “unlettered” — they should have known better.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 532366)

They could not have held that view as of late March 2020 and been considered educated on the matter. I would call those people, at the outset, inaccurate prognosticators who later changed their views.

Those prognosticators who retained that view after the bodies started piling up in NYC cannot be considered educated, as to the virus, or probably, generally. They'd be delusional or mentally challenged.

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 532367)

Because I can't tell: you know he means you, right?

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 532368)

My prediction, made by many early on, had almost no impact among sane people beyond late March, as it was quickly and dramatically proven incorrect. The people who persisted in thinking it was just a flu after late March, despite evidence to the contrary, were and in many cases remain, insane.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 532366)

They could not have held that view as of late March 2020 and been considered educated on the matter. I would call those people, at the outset, inaccurate prognosticators who later changed their views.

Those prognosticators who retained that view after the bodies started piling up in NYC cannot be considered educated, as to the virus, or probably, generally. They'd be delusional or mentally challenged.

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 532370)

They may remain insane, but they persist.

Part of the problem with COVID is the impact varies on different people. I know long haulers who will never have full use of their lungs again. I know others who barely flinched when they got it. I had a two day headache in early January that I attributed to third trimester of pregnancy, but in retrospect may or may not have been Omicron. I'll never know because I'm triple vaxxed and didn't test at the time.

But the major problem with messaging is the click bait world we live in, which means every utterance, study, debate, speculation, and anecdote about COVID will be breathlessly reported on no matter how benign, batshit or in between it is. And is all given equal weight no matter what the source.

I'm a Star Wars dork. I have acquaintances who work for Lucasfilm. One mildly changed his bio on Twitter last week, and there were no less than four Youtube videos speculating on What Does This Mean. They monetize the shit out of those videos. I know Star Wars dorks who have been able to quit their jobs and full time focus on putting out podcasts, videos, print media, and in some cases appearances at cons and shit. Hell, even I sometimes am on a podcast about legal shit and Star Wars (I get zero out of it other than the ability to spout off on cloning law...)

Anyhow, that's a tiny, teeny part of the clickbait universe. COVID is in the big pool with every single person out there in media and "media" wanting to breathlessly report, tear apart, pander, etc on everything. Like the Star Wars dorks, there are plenty that will fill the time with whatever they have on hand, even it it's wild ass speculation based off the thinnest, most distorted piece of information. And they can see via the clicks and the analytics and the money YouTube gives them what sort of stories sell and what doesn't. Measured, methodical reasonable stories do not dazzle and sell. The histrionic do. And our former President, as god awful as he was at every other thing he did/does, knew this instinctively, fostered it, and encouraged those who want to emulate and/or suck up to him to do the same. He's a fucking master at it and he set the tone for how the messaging was going to be. We're still paying for it and we may never come out of this sort of approach to anything and everything.

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 532370)

They may remain insane, but they persist.

Part of the problem with COVID is the impact varies on different people. I know long haulers who will never have full use of their lungs again. I know others who barely flinched when they got it. I had a two day headache in early January that I attributed to third trimester of pregnancy, but in retrospect may or may not have been Omicron. I'll never know because I'm triple vaxxed and didn't test at the time.

But the major problem with messaging is the click bait world we live in, which means every utterance, study, debate, speculation, and anecdote about COVID will be breathlessly reported on no matter how benign, batshit or in between it is. And is all given equal weight no matter what the source.

I'm a Star Wars dork. I have acquaintances who work for Lucasfilm. One mildly changed his bio on Twitter last week, and there were no less than four Youtube videos speculating on What Does This Mean. They monetize the shit out of those videos. I know Star Wars dorks who have been able to quit their jobs and full time focus on putting out podcasts, videos, print media, and in some cases appearances at cons and shit. Hell, even I sometimes am on a podcast about legal shit and Star Wars (I get zero out of it other than the ability to spout off on cloning law...)

Anyhow, that's a tiny, teeny part of the clickbait universe. COVID is in the big pool with every single person out there in media and "media" wanting to breathlessly report, tear apart, pander, etc on everything. Like the Star Wars dorks, there are plenty that will fill the time with whatever they have on hand, even it it's wild ass speculation based off the thinnest, most distorted piece of information. And they can see via the clicks and the analytics and the money YouTube gives them what sort of stories sell and what doesn't. Measured, methodical reasonable stories do not dazzle and sell. The histrionic do. And our former President, as god awful as he was at every other thing he did/does, knew this instinctively, fostered it, and encouraged those who want to emulate and/or suck up to him to do the same. He's a fucking master at it and he set the tone for how the messaging was going to be. We're still paying for it and we may never come out of this sort of approach to anything and everything.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 532374)

I agree. The concept of consensus is lost. That was coined by either Lippmann or Galbraith. It was built on the flawed notion there existed an enlightened crowd who could formulate a best case scenario for all and sell it to everyone.

The internet eliminated the instruments by which these narratives, later noble lies, and finally, now, neoliberal propaganda, could be imposed on the broader public.

The lying and spinning predated Trump. He’s not a cause. Certainly an accelerant. But just a PT Barnum in a system we - me as much or more than many - helped to create.

We lied and lied and lied and papered it all over with debt. And it worked. And then along came the internet, and no one could lie anymore.

And no one trusted anything anymore after 2008. It looked and smelled rigged (because it is, no matter how much we all claim it’s a meritocracy).

The internet made it impossible for anyone to say anything and Make It Stick. Lies, truth, a mix of both… That’s all done.

And I don’t think it’s coming back in our lives. I think the fight we’ll see for the rest of our lives re: information is a battle over whether the state and media corps should be able to peddle lies and push narratives to create stability.

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 532375)

If I remember right, this discuss started with someone here on the board defending Rogan.

But given the exchange you're having with RT here, I think we're all agreed that people who spread false shit for internet fame are shits cashing in on a bad system.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 532376)

Anyone who rips Fox but asserts that CNN isn’t biased, or that MSNBC, WaPo, or the Times, aren’t biased, is complicit in peddling narrative.

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 532377)

this is so fucking tired.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 532379)

It is. The argument this is false equivalence is such bullshit the only response to it is an eye roll.



This is unlike MSNBC or WaPo how exactly? I know, it's terrible taboo to cite Taibbi or Greenwald (because they can't be refuted on their claims of sleazy bias in the media, so instead, people on your side of the argument pivot to accusing them of cashing in by demonizing the media... which is of course a naked non-response/deflection to the accusation of bias). Taibbi has assiduously cataloged the mechanism by which the right and the left pump bullshit to audiences.

It's simple:

1. Report w/o fact-checking;
2. When it appears to have been untrue, don't issue a noticeable retraction... instead, bury it on page 7, or if it's online, simply edit the prior piece after the fact;
3. When flagged for a non-retraction on TV, bury the lede -- state it within a larger statement in which you nevertheless accuse the victim of the falsehood of something nefarious.



Agreed. Fuck Fox. And fuck almost every outlet that hyped Russiagate for four years, and is still foisting that bullshit. Fuck every outlet that is still focusing on Trump (even as his polling among the GOP is sinking). Fuck everyone on the left who used endless attacks on him as a cash cow (which played right into his game). And really, really, fuck the people at MSNBC who admit privately that they sell succor to suckers.

So yeah -- fuck all those people.



Yup. And their counterparts on the other side half-retract, half-apologize, and keep pumping out the same bullshit, week after week.

You can see it going on with the January 6 thing. CNN and MSNBC cover it endlessly, and hype it constantly. They desperately want this story to become the next Watergate. But guess what? No one really cares. It only gets traction among a small audience of news nuts. Society has moved on from Trump. The GOP is moving on from Trump. Who isn't? Well, CNN isn't. And for good reason. Their ratings are down monstrously since he left office.



There's a great movie out there called OutFoxed. It explains how, when Fox was still somewhat sane, many years ago - before it lost all semblance of integrity - it used sly, nearly imperceptible devices, to propagandize for its right wing views. MSNBC is nearly identical to that Fox of old. And the Fox of today? You're right. It's just full on Pravda. Fantasy. 24/7 bullshit.

But Fox is obviously bullshit. You can't even watch it. MSNBC still looks like a news organization. But it's not. It's serving up opinion cleverly stuffed into news. I'd say it's much more effective manipulation than Fox's obvious bullshitting of today.



I still watch CNN, however, because it's so bad at slanting (people like Stelter), one can easily separate the news from the spin. I also like Zakaria.



I'm not defending Rogan or saying he is not an institution. He is. I think his putting on loony guests is problematic. But I also think he has the right to do whatever the fuck he likes. Like Fox, MSNBC, etc.



Where does this stop? I've elitist tendencies. I say godawful things about Joe Sixpack, and I've done it a lot here.

And I agree with you that an anti-vaxxer is a toddler. They drive me nuts. But you do realize that what you just said here is something dangerous. It's three simple words: "I know best."

On vaccines, you do. I do. All of us who got vaccinated do.

But, respectfully, I don't think I'd want you running policy of any kind. And I don't think you'd want me doing it. If people want to make bad decisions, they've a right to do so. If they want to believe bullshit, they've a right to do so. I don't object to nudging them in the right direction. But from where I am sitting, having viewed the decisions of people like us - the managerial professional classes - We Are Huge Fuck-Ups. The knuckledraggers may kill themselves and some of us with terrible decision making. But we make the really, really fucking awful decisions. 2008? Us. Iraq? Us. Wealth inequality? Us. Trump? A reaction to Us. We think we know everything, and repeatedly tinker with things, and then -- "Oh shit! The law of Unintended Consequences!" Our Brahmin of the moment are the dangerous fools of the next decade (Greenspan, Robert McNamara, Cheney, Most of Wall Street).

We can't lead without some consensus. And consensus is not people like Us telling others what to think or do, and trying to silence views we don't like or are bullshit. We can only give people good information. If they choose to reject it, that's on them. And if their foolishness harms us, well, that's the price one pays to live in a free society.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 532379)

this is false equivalence ... such bullshit ... eye roll.

the right and the left pump bullshit to audiences ...

Fuck Fox. And fuck almost every outlet that hyped Russiagate for four years ...

So yeah -- fuck all those people. ...

their counterparts on the other side ...

... MSNBC is nearly identical to that Fox of old ...

Rogan ... has the right to do whatever the fuck he likes. Like Fox, MSNBC, etc.

...

If people want to make bad decisions, they've a right to do so. If they want to believe bullshit, they've a right to do so. ...

We Are Huge Fuck-Ups. ...

Originally Posted by Icky Thump (Post 532373)

You should really watch The Expanse. By far the best SciFi I have watched, in forever.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 532381)

Lots of false equivalence, followed by "we have met the enemy and he is us" -- evergreen.

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 532383)

Tired of the same old, same old? Tomorrow’s Song of the Day will be a completely different song. I have a lot to choose from.

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 532383)

Tired of the same old, same old? Tomorrow’s Song of the Day will be a completely different song. I have a lot to choose from.

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 532384)

Paint it black! Paint it black you devils!

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 532383)

Tired of the same old, same old? Tomorrow’s Song of the Day will be a completely different song. I have a lot to choose from.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 532386)

To be fair, it's more trite equivalence, or easy equivalence, or oleaginous equivalence. There's some element of truth to it, but in the same way that stereotypes are usually based on something.

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 532388)

Ooooh. Please tell me you are going to the top of Billboard's Indian Music charts! https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...E7BF&FORM=VIRE

Or maybe you'll answer the long unanswered question from the north country: after the tragedy of the Tragically Hip, whom?

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 532382)

We were waiting for the season to finish before getting into this last one. Absolutely love it. I'm two books from finishing the series too, and I can't think of a series where I loved both versions pretty much equally.

I aspire to glare as well as Camina Drummer.

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 532390)

Thank you for your interest, but I do not take requests, except when I do. I rather enjoyed your song, though, and was NOT expecting the banjo.

But today we stay in New Orleans, and go back a bunch of decades to 1972. Four years earlier, Dr. John had blown everybody’s head open with the psychedelic voodoo masterpiece Gris-Gris, which gave him some cult status cachet—his 1971 album The Sun, Moon & Herbs, for example, had guest appearances by Mick Jagger and Eric Clapton. For Gumbo, he looked to New Orleans classics, including Earl King’s Big Chief (the same type of Mardi Gras Indian Big Chief referenced in yesterday’s Song of the Day). The song had been popularized by Professor Longhair, but I love the slower Dr. John version, with the loopy electronic organ riff, and super funky laid back second line percussion. The references to Spy Boys and Flag Boys are also to specific roles within Mardi Gras Indian gangs. The album itself is an incredible tribute to classic New Orleans music, and if you have never sat down and listened to the whole Gumbo album, I recommend taking an hour or so this Mardi Gras, making yourself a couple of Vieux Carres, turning up the heat, putting your feet up and letting the groove wash over you. (Alternate instructions if you decide instead to go with the album Gris-Gris involve substituting Vieux Carres with Ayuhuasca, and securing ample face paint and/or voodoo masks, congas and tambourines, and dozens of candles for lighting.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCBdO4w6jAs