I don't think the kidnapping of two soldiers was worth starting a war over, as heinous as it was. The destruction that Israel has unleashed on Lebanon will be worse for Israel in the long run. That doesn't mean I think Israel should roll over. Some problems have no good solutions, only less-bad ones.

I want to point out that if I were you, I would take some huge personal offence to that and respond along the lines, "Fuck you and all of your crafty analogies, you worthless piece of shit!", but I accept strong rhetoric begets strong rhetoric, so I will ask, how you think that analogy applies?

The 911 terrorists were seeking to defend their homelands from military strikes coming out of the WTC, which had US troops hidden amongst the civilians there? Or was it that the 911 terrorists want us out of the ME so that they have free hand to drive Israel into the sea?

1.5. I think.

Because they think bad thoughts? Because they didn't vote for someone who would try to disarm Hezbollah? Because they voted for Hezbollah?

What does it take to lose your innocence to the point where you deserve to become "collateral damage"? You and Penske are both dancing around that question without doing much to answer it.

Fill in the blank: Lebanese men, women and children deserved to be killed because __________.

I think its about more than the 2 soldiers, not withstanding the obvious opportunity that provided. Should they wait another 5 years to deal with Hezbollah? When there are 26000 missiles pointed at them (including several thousand that have by then found there way to Gaza)? When President Clinton, then in her second term, has removed our troops from Iraq and that region has broken into Kurdistan and larger area fka Iraq which is a free range terrorist sanctuary? When Iran has nukes?

Death and destruction are sad and tragic and I am not arguing otherwise, but in the above scenario, which is or would be more likely than peaceful coexistence in Israel/Palestine/Lebanon/Syria, time doesn't work to the Israelis advantage. If we let the situation go unchecked, when the day comes that Hezbollah has 26000 missiles and Hamas has 5000, and Iran has nukes, and they make their move, how do you propose dealing with it? Despite Israel's military might, there will come a point it won't matter. Is the US going to have a massive mobilization at that point and go in save the day? How long in that scenario does Israel survive? Who apologizes to history for the second holocaust?

Which makes Lebanese citizens the functional equivalent of "little Eichmans", right?

If you're right that the Lebanese support Hezbollah so much, how is this fighting going to do any good? When the dust settles, they'll re-arm, right?

okay. Here's the Keys to tel Aviv! hit rewind.

we just gave up Gaza, and that only made things worse, and we're getting fucked with by Hezbollah. what do we do?

Apart from the prospect of Iranian nukes, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Hezbollah and Hamas rockets don't pose an existential threat to Israel, althogh they do kill people. And if you're worried about Hezbollah and Hamas getting better arms, then you'll want to isolate and deter them. The solutions may be different for each group. For Hamas, let them try running Gaza and taking some responsibility for what goes on there, and there's reason to believe they'll moderate. For Hezbollah, it doesn't seem like this is an option, but you'll want to cut them off from Syria and Iran to deny them heavier weapons. But what Israel has done gives both groups more support inside and outside the Arab world, and makes it harder to do anything about Iranian nukes.

When does Israel stop bombing? What do you think happens then?

I don't think that there is a clear cut answer. I am not arguing for thought crimes. I believe that regardless of the state of war or peace, large portions of the population of the ME will remain anti-semitic. Not unlike how large portions of the South remained racist after the civil war or anti-semitism in W. Europe after WWII. Truly changing mindsets in that region will take generations beyond our lifetimes.

Going beyond just hateful thought (which, however does breed attitudes, actions and behaviours based on the thought), I am not saying any pure civilian DESERVES to die. NO CHILD does. they are the one true absolutely universally innocent victim. What I am saying is that large parts of the civilian population give aid, shelter, comfort and political support to Hezbollah and their Syrian sponsors because of their hatred of Israel and desire to destroy the same. Over time, a lot of time. 20-30 years they have ceded the autonomous nature of their country to Syria and Hezbollah. At some point there has to be responsibility for what you have done or passively allowed to be done in your name. Are the masses of refugees coming out and decrying Hezbollah or Syria. Is their blame spread all around? What would these same innocent cilivilans be saying if the battle went the other way and Hezbollah moved into large parts of Israel and Syria moved into the Golan? I think that in part speaks to their neutrality and innocence.

early signs of what Hamas will do is attack Israel from the land Israel just gave up.

as to giving Hezbollah MORE support, that really seems a BFD. Don't you remeber those polls pre- 9/11 where 80% of Saudi Arabians hate the US and Israel- Osama is the number 1 name for newborn boys, all anedoctal sure, but don't you ever ask yourself if "more support to those we think terrorists" has any meaning at all? if anything if we get closer to 100% then Penske can feel even less guilty.

I think Hamas has shown their colours in Gaza. They can't govern, but they can terrorise. Better weapons will make them better at it. I do think eventually those missiles do pose an existential threat to Israel. At some point the missiles will be a prelude to a bigger invasion. At some point there other armies from the region that will seize on that opportunity in the name of Arab brotherhood and Islamic destiny. At some point, maybe now, Israel is not invincible.

I am not sure what happens when Israel stops bombing. Maybe they take back a security zone in Lebanon. There really are no good solutions here, in large part because you have a consolidated "other side" which does want peace or a practical long term solution. Other than the end of Israel.

Are you kidding? Do you know what Lebanon was like thirty years ago? I'll give you a hint: It didn't have a strong central government that then ceded authority and autonomy to Syria and Lebanon.

Why do you think their neutrality and innocence matters, then? And can you understand why they might critical of Israel?

In point of fact, I think there were a lot more people, including Arabs, prepared to be critical of Israel two weeks ago. But the military campaign since then has changed hearts and minds. And distracted from the fact that Hezbollah is not even trying to aim at military targets, but is launching rockets at Israeli cities.

you're right. We'll stop the bombs right now- and follow your plan, which is............?

Think to yourself: What would Ariel Sharon do? Do you think he would have launched an invasion of Lebanon? Some retaliation, surely, but much more targeted.

But Penske seems to be saying that this whole exercise is the Kobayashi Maru, so we might as well take out as many of the non-innocent as we can along the way.

I know what it is like 30 years. to be honest and telegraph my imperfect current knowledge, I would say I had a better understanding of the landscape then, than now. While there was not a strong central government 30 years ago, i.e civil war, there were leaders of various factional groups and parties. Collectively they, and the peoples they represented, failed, and Syria and Hezbollah filled the vaccum. But its not like certain masses of the people do not relate and sympathise with them.


I am not sure any large groups of people are fully innocent, except for kids. I think that if you create an environment, communities predicated on hate and the ideal of the destruction of your perceived mortal enemy, and you let the instrumentality of that destruction live and prosper, unchecked, within your community, its a bit disingenous to then claim you have no responsibility for their actions, in part, in your name.
[