Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 514941)

You don't think there was an economic aspect to it for many of that sort people? "I'm poor because of blacks and Mexicans being given all the good jobs I'd otherwise have."

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 514943)

Bringing back coal jobs is a big FU to people who talk about new-economy service jobs as a replacement for the well-paid, manly work that Trump voters grew up thinking were their entitlement.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514947)

So, as I was Wonking this morning, I read you guys going back and forth on whether we can determine which political party is generally smarter. I don't think this is the right question because almost everyone is stupid. The right question is: Which party is more educated?

When I say, "educated," I don't mean strictly good grades, college achievement, post-graduate studies, etc.--although that's part of it. I mean being open to learning, whether that mean accepting science, being open to understanding different people and cultures, listening to and acceptance of facts, and adapting to change and progress (technological, social, whatever).

Obviously everything I'm about to say falls in the category of generalizations and exaggeration.

If you live in the middle of nowhere, do the same job your daddy did and his daddy did, know no one who doesn't look like you and who isn't in the same position as you, are heavily religious and attend the type of churches filled with people who have the same limitations, didn't attend college, and watch Fox News, you are uneducated when it comes to almost everything. And the fact that you are isolated with people of similar viewpoints means not only is there little chance that you will be exposed to any type of new ideas, but every stupid idea you have will be reinforced by the people in your community. You will never be open. You will always be uneducated as to anything outside of that world.

Your views on diverse people are completely uninformed and ruled by ignorance and fear.

You are resistant to learning a new trade or job as the world changes around you and options within your geographic reach are non-existent.

Your post-school education is rooted in religious "teachings" that are as slanted and ignorant and designed to appeal to your already-limited view of the world.

Any reasonable people who might give you a different perspective have fled at the very first opportunity.

I've said this a million times. Our biggest problem in this country is that we design everything to avoid interaction with people who are not like us. Cities surely aren't perfect and people sure try to craft an experience in which they mix with people unlike them as little as possible, but it's just not possible to live in them and not have some exposure to different types of people, more opportunity, lots of ideas and differing viewpoints, actual interactions with other cultures, exposure to smart and accomplished women or any in positions of authority,* etc. Education. Ongoing.

Don't get me wrong. You can be ignorant as fuck and live in a city. But you really have to go out of your way to make it that way. Easier to do in suburbs, easier still exurbs, and a piece of cake in rural areas.

TM

*Added after reading GGG's response. Shameful that it doesn't automatically pop up when I'm trying to make a list.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514948)

It's my fault for not including it. It's part of the lost status.

TM

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514947)

Our biggest problem in this country is that we design everything to avoid interaction with people who are not like us. Cities surely aren't perfect and people sure try to craft an experience in which they mix with people unlike them as little as possible, but it's just not possible to live in them and not have some exposure to different types of people, more opportunity, lots of ideas and differing viewpoints, actual interactions with other cultures, exposure to smart and accomplished women or any in positions of authority,* etc. Education. Ongoing.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 514945)

The essence of conservatism these days is pwning libs. What could be more conservative than voting Republican in order to vote against the Democrat, especially when the Democrat would be the first woman President?

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 514950)

It's also an FU to the hippy environmentalist queers too.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514947)

Our biggest problem in this country is that we design everything to avoid interaction with people who are not like us. Cities surely aren't perfect and people sure try to craft an experience in which they mix with people unlike them as little as possible, but it's just not possible to live in them and not have some exposure to different types of people, more opportunity, lots of ideas and differing viewpoints, actual interactions with other cultures, exposure to smart and accomplished women or any in positions of authority,* etc. Education. Ongoing.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 514955)

That's why conservatives support nuclear power.

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 514957)

Except they were probably right about that. Past tense because solar is rapidly changing the equation, but more nukes 20-30 years ago would probably have been a good thing, on net.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 514956)

A large percentage of the country has lost the ability to engage each other intellectually.

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 514951)

I strongly believe that what is lacking right now in Northern and Midwestern rural America (it's much more common in Southern rural America) is sufficient immigration. Those areas became American's heartland when they were full of hardworking people speaking different languages and with different religions.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 514959)

Conservatives have no interest in engaging with libs intellectually. They want to pwn libs. Haven't you been paying attention?

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 514956)

I agree with this entirely. Nothing cures adherence to bigoted "isms" like regular exposure to individual members of the groups about which one recklessly generalizes.

But I think the current problem goes beyond just exposure to people of different backgrounds.

A large percentage of the country has lost the ability to engage each other intellectually. Conversation is dead, advocacy its replacement. People view discussions not as opportunities to have their minds changed, or to test the validity of their positions, but as zero sum games.

There is no absolute right or wrong in most complex matters. The Left and the Right are a yin and yang. Everybody sensible person knows this. A society run on exclusively progressive or exclusively conservative policies cannot persist. There has to be horse trading. There used to be horse trading. But it's damn hard to horse trade when you you come to the table with, "Everything you stand for is fundamentally invalid."

Every civics class should require students to memorize this statement:

"Progressivism and Conservatism are both incomplete, like any 'ism.' Neither is tenable alone, both working best as counterweights to one another, ideological checks and balances."

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514942)

I do. I think that's mixed into the question of status. The perception is that all of these "others" (non-whites, foreigners, etc.) are making gains. With those gains come economic benefits that the Trump voters we're referring to believe are coming at their expense. But the shorthand for all of their problems is "America First" and if you don't think that's thinly-veiled hate speech, then we disagree on everything. It's a message that we need to get back to what we were when Whites dominated everything (as if they don't now). You get to turn your brain off and just support because it doesn't matter what he says, how offensive he gets, whether he understands the issues, if he's crooked, or whether he colluded with Russia, because he's for you. And if he's for you and will stick it to everyone in Washington who is okay with this trend of accommodating The Other, then he's your guy.

TM

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 514956)

I agree with this entirely. Nothing cures adherence to bigoted "isms" like regular exposure to individual members of the groups about which one recklessly generalizes.

But I think the current problem goes beyond just exposure to people of different backgrounds.

A large percentage of the country has lost the ability to engage each other intellectually. Conversation is dead, advocacy its replacement. People view discussions not as opportunities to have their minds changed, or to test the validity of their positions, but as zero sum games.

There is no absolute right or wrong in most complex matters. The Left and the Right are a yin and yang. Everybody sensible person knows this. A society run on exclusively progressive or exclusively conservative policies cannot persist. There has to be horse trading. There used to be horse trading. But it's damn hard to horse trade when you you come to the negotiating table and open with, "Everything you stand for is fundamentally invalid."

Every civics class should require students to memorize this statement:

"Progressivism and Conservatism are both incomplete, like any 'ism.' Neither is tenable alone, both working best as counterweights to one another, ideological checks and balances."

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 514963)

If someone says "I'd be better off if everything wasn't given to the other," instead of "Gosh I'd wish I could get ahead," Of course there is hate there.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514964)

I don't disagree with this proposition. But this is the situation:

• In terms of gross support, the right is losing. If everyone were forced to vote, Republicans would be murdered. Because they are losing ground, they cheat. They manipulate the voting districts and suppress the vote in ways that Democrats simply do not. (Please don't tell me that there are entrenched Democrats too. We know this. But one side is doing it at rates that simply are not comparable.) Republicans are changing the net numbers to maintain power and they are succeeding wildly.
  
• Republicans have abandoned facts and science in favor of policy based on wishful thinking. You can point to idiot liberal anti-vaxxers all you like, but the steps being taken by Republicans to actively deny science and fact-based analysis are astonishing. Science is now a left-right issue. That's fucking crazy.
  
• Republicans have abandoned the norms on which our government has been run. Because these norms are not codified, they simply ignore them. Steal a Supreme Court seat to maintain control. Set up committees to investigate bullshit and when your own investigation concludes no wrongdoing, ignore it and start another one. Look the other way and actively enable a President who is clearly using the office to enrich himself and his family. Undermine the rule of law by running a pretend investigation into his activities and wrap it up for political reasons.
  
• Encourage and enflame racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia to maintain your political position. Fucking codify it when you can (freedom of religion act? Straight bullshit). Ignore it when you can (destroy the voting rights act, support racist policy with pretextual bullshit at every turn).

I could go on and on.

One side of this country is so off the fucking rails that your efforts of trying to talk sense to both sides actually sounds crazy. If one person says, "It's not that cold outside," when it's 29 degrees and another person says, "The trash monster told me I must destroy all of skateboards," trying to sit down with both to talk about why they should each be careful about saying irresponsible things makes you seem deranged.

TM

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514964)

I don't disagree with this proposition. But this is the situation:

• In terms of gross support, the right is losing. If everyone were forced to vote, Republicans would be murdered. Because they are losing ground, they cheat. They manipulate the voting districts and suppress the vote in ways that Democrats simply do not. (Please don't tell me that there are entrenched Democrats too. We know this. But one side is doing it at rates that simply are not comparable.) Republicans are changing the net numbers to maintain power and they are succeeding wildly.
  
• Republicans have abandoned facts and science in favor of policy based on wishful thinking. You can point to idiot liberal anti-vaxxers all you like, but the steps being taken by Republicans to actively deny science and fact-based analysis are astonishing. Science is now a left-right issue. That's fucking crazy.
  
• Republicans have abandoned the norms on which our government has been run. Because these norms are not codified, they simply ignore them. Steal a Supreme Court seat to maintain control. Set up committees to investigate bullshit and when your own investigation concludes no wrongdoing, ignore it and start another one. Look the other way and actively enable a President who is clearly using the office to enrich himself and his family. Undermine the rule of law by running a pretend investigation into his activities and wrap it up for political reasons.
  
• Encourage and enflame racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia to maintain your political position. Fucking codify it when you can (freedom of religion act? Straight bullshit). Ignore it when you can (destroy the voting rights act, support racist policy with pretextual bullshit at every turn).

I could go on and on.

One side of this country is so off the fucking rails that your efforts of trying to talk sense to both sides actually sounds crazy. If one person says, "It's not that cold outside," when it's 29 degrees and another person says, "The trash monster told me I must destroy all of skateboards," trying to sit down with both to talk about why they should each be careful about saying irresponsible things makes you seem deranged.

TM

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 514960)

More passenger rail. More passenger rail. More passenger rail.

The track is already there. We should expand the reach of the big cities and link the cities with the country to the extent possible.

And it's environmentally friendly.

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 514963)

If someone says "I'd be better off if everything wasn't given to the other," instead of "Gosh I'd wish I could get ahead," Of course there is hate there.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514969)

You'll have to explain to me why this isn't completely non-responsive.

TM

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 514967)

I agree with all of this, but did it grow from the original "are the dumb equally represented" argument? Because I think a lot of what you point to as Dem talking points may not be real motivators for a big chunk of the base. I'd say that the R's have moved to having talking points aimed at moving the dumb, whereas the Dems aim at higher thoughts, assuming their dumb will be there anyway.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514968)

I was just in St. Louis. The city wanted to expand the limited light rail it has to connect the city with the suburbs. The amount of anger generated from white people who think that blacks will use it to come into their neighborhoods and steal and create crime is astonishing. Proposition defeated before they could even draw something up.

The white people who are against it don't look at it as something that will improve their city, create a more connected experience, move labor efficiently, be attractive to potential employers, etc. They see it as an infringement on the bubbles they have created to keep people out.

And when I say, "bubbles," I mean that streets which are technically in the city, are private streets owned by the people who own the houses on that street. They shut them down so that only people who live there can be on them. You can't even drive on them to get to the other side. They're everywhere. And the line of demarcation between this:

https://p.rdcpix.com/v04/leed95643-m...0_h770_q80.jpgand this:

https://www.builtstlouis.net/northsi...rosample02.jpgis regularly a street dividing the two.

Spend some time on this site to see just how insane it is there: http://toursbyjoshwhitehead.blogspot...-st-louis.html

TM

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 514970)

Uhh, because you're trying to force me into a position I wasn't taking?

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514968)

I was just in St. Louis. The city wanted to expand the limited light rail it has to connect the city with the suburbs. The amount of anger generated from white people who think that blacks will use it to come into their neighborhoods and steal and create crime is astonishing. Proposition defeated before they could even draw something up.

The white people who are against it don't look at it as something that will improve their city, create a more connected experience, move labor efficiently, be attractive to potential employers, etc. They see it as an infringement on the bubbles they have created to keep people out.

And when I say, "bubbles," I mean that streets which are technically in the city, are private streets owned by the people who own the houses on that street. They shut them down so that only people who live there can be on them. You can't even drive on them to get to the other side. They're everywhere. And the line of demarcation between this:

https://p.rdcpix.com/v04/leed95643-m...0_h770_q80.jpg

and this:

https://www.builtstlouis.net/northsi...rosample02.jpg

is regularly just a street dividing the two.

Spend some time on this site to see just how insane it is there: http://toursbyjoshwhitehead.blogspot...-st-louis.html

TM

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 514972)

Being from Detroit i hadn't thought of SL as having a limited rail system. I took it from the airport downtown every time I was there (several times a few years back) and it seemed feeders went to a lot of places. But you are right there were a lot of places I had to drive, the Hill as an example. Sad, if they had a plan and funding and it was voted down simply for fear of who might be brought in.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 514974)

I have never been there, but it has been my impression ever since Ferguson that local government in that area is organized top to bottom to screw blacks and preserve white supremacy, like nowhere else I know of.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514973)

Bullshit. You asked me a question. I answered it. You wrote something ridiculous.

Everyone thinks, "Gosh, I just want to get ahead." One party is filled with people who think, "The reason why I can't is because of [people who aren't like me]."

TM

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 514977)

go back and reread what I wrote, or forget about it. I said there is an economic aspect, at least they believe there is, baked into their hate. You agree and seemed to question if I was saying there was no hate. I said of course there is hate. But Rave on!

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514964)

[LIST][*]In terms of gross support, the right is losing. If everyone were forced to vote, Republicans would be murdered. Because they are losing ground, they cheat. They manipulate the voting districts and suppress the vote in ways that Democrats simply do not. (Please don't tell me that there are entrenched Democrats too. We know this. But one side is doing it at rates that simply are not comparable.) Republicans are changing the net numbers to maintain power and they are succeeding wildly.

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 514972)

Being from Detroit i hadn't thought of SL as having a limited rail system. I took it from the airport downtown every time I was there (several times a few years back) and it seemed feeders went to a lot of places. But you are right there were a lot of places I had to drive, the Hill as an example. Sad, if they had a plan and funding and it was voted down simply for fear of who might be brought in.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 514960)

More passenger rail. More passenger rail. More passenger rail.

The track is already there. We should expand the reach of the big cities and link the cities with the country to the extent possible.

And it's environmentally friendly.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 514974)

I have never been there, but it has been my impression ever since Ferguson that local government in that area is organized top to bottom to screw blacks and preserve white supremacy, like nowhere else I know of.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514968)

I was just in St. Louis. The city wanted to expand the limited light rail it has to connect the city with the suburbs. The amount of anger generated from white people who think that blacks will use it to come into their neighborhoods and steal and create crime is astonishing. Proposition defeated before they could even draw something up.

The white people who are against it don't look at it as something that will improve their city, create a more connected experience, move labor efficiently, be attractive to potential employers, etc. They see it as an infringement on the bubbles they have created to keep people out.

And when I say, "bubbles," I mean that streets which are technically in the city, are private streets owned by the people who own the houses on that street. They shut them down so that only people who live there can be on them. You can't even drive on them to get to the other side. They're everywhere. And the line of demarcation between this:

https://p.rdcpix.com/v04/leed95643-m...0_h770_q80.jpg



TM

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 514982)

For those of you in NY or with NY roots, any good ideas for places a kid can stay over the summer - we're checking a couple local convents and a couple colleges with dorms, but it looks like my daughter will be in NY this summer for an engineering internship, and we have to find a place for her to stay somewhat last minute.

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 514980)

We all probably know this, but legend has it that the DC Metro does not go to Georgetown for this reason.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514985)

How old is your daughter? Where is the internship located? How much are you looking to spend?

TM

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514968)

I was just in St. Louis. The city wanted to expand the limited light rail it has to connect the city with the suburbs. The amount of anger generated from white people who think that blacks will use it to come into their neighborhoods and steal and create crime is astonishing. Proposition defeated before they could even draw something up.

The white people who are against it don't look at it as something that will improve their city, create a more connected experience, move labor efficiently, be attractive to potential employers, etc. They see it as an infringement on the bubbles they have created to keep people out.

And when I say, "bubbles," I mean that streets which are technically in the city, are private streets owned by the people who own the houses on that street. They shut them down so that only people who live there can be on them. You can't even drive on them to get to the other side. They're everywhere. And the line of demarcation between this:

https://p.rdcpix.com/v04/leed95643-m...0_h770_q80.jpg

and this:

https://www.builtstlouis.net/northsi...rosample02.jpg

is regularly just a street dividing the two.

Spend some time on this site to see just how insane it is there: http://toursbyjoshwhitehead.blogspot...-st-louis.html

TM