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-   -   Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=880)

sebastian_dangerfield 11-09-2017 11:43 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
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It's kind of hard to escape that conclusion given that we backlash against Trumpism we were hoping for/expecting actually showed up in VA.
2. In every state where elections were held. The D ground game re-emerged.

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There is literally nothing that can be done. They don't like Trump because they believe he'll do anything for them. They like him because he hates the people they hate. There's no appealing to that group without joining in.
I doubted this at first, but it is increasingly apparent to me. A third of the country has mentally seceded. We are in a cold civil war.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 11-09-2017 11:44 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
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Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller (Post 511257)
3G: I misread your survey question; apologies. We agree that Catholics ignore doctrine on birth control. The evidence is irrefutable.

But Dems have to get away from shunning people like Robert Casey, the former centrist governor of Pennsylvania, who was ardently pro-life. Given how tight some of the races in rust belt states are, just a wee bit of flexibility...toleration...if you will... for pro-Life candidates could lead to more progressive government.

You agree to disagree on the abortion issue and you find common ground on preventing unwanted pregnancy. Then you move to the other 10 issues where you agree.

I myself welcome folks like Casey in the party, even though I disagree with them. I disagree with Bernie, for example, too.

That doesn't mean, though, either of them can have my vote in a primary or my money.

Adder 11-09-2017 11:45 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
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Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller (Post 511257)
Given how tight some of the races in rust belt states are, just a wee bit of flexibility...toleration...if you will... for pro-Life candidates could lead to more progressive government.

Exaggerated for effect: Just agree to a wee bit of oppression of women...

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 11-09-2017 11:46 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
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Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 511262)
NFP is not the rhythm method, btw. It worked to help us expeditiously conceive the Chicklets (and the pregnancies we lost). Preventing pregnancy takes a fair amount of care and attention, but can be effective for people who know what they're doing. Cervical mucus and basal body temps are pretty good indicators.

And I'm not even Catholic.

I'm not going to get into the TMI area of birth control, but will just say, even among those of us who are "good catholics" the doctrine thing is laughable.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 11-09-2017 11:46 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
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Originally Posted by Adder (Post 511263)
I don't think the abortion issue is primarily about Catholics.

Every fucking issue is just about me.

Adder 11-09-2017 11:47 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 511260)
(they actually endorse using something called the Rhythm Method, which times a woman's fertility cycle)

What are we, in third grade here? Which of us needed the rhythm method explained?? ;)

sebastian_dangerfield 11-09-2017 11:59 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 511262)
NFP is not the rhythm method, btw. It worked to help us expeditiously conceive the Chicklets (and the pregnancies we lost). Preventing pregnancy takes a fair amount of care and attention, but can be effective for people who know what they're doing. Cervical mucus and basal body temps are pretty good indicators.

And I'm not even Catholic.

I've always wondered, does one have to confess for a nocturnal emission? Oh, those poor guilt-riddled newly pubescents...

Suppose one is switching positions and happens to ejaculate while he's outside?

What if one is prone to premature ejaculation? Is his trouser stain a mortal sin?

And if a man spilling his seed is a sin, why does a woman get a pass for menstruation? Seems a bit arbitrary to me.

And I get that God is pretty patriarchal, but on masturbation, he's a pretty rotten misandrist. I mean, cunnilingus to climax? Fine. A hand job or a blow job? Sin.

What's the teaching on rubbing one at the fertility clinic in order to artificially inseminate one's spouse? You're technically spilling seed, but it's for a proper cause, no?

Oh, and if pre-marital sex is a sin, but you're doing it anyway, is it worse, or better, to engage in it unprotected? Is God kinda cool with you banging your high school sweetheart as long as there's a chance you'll knock her up? Is he doubly pissed if you use a condom in the act?

Catholicism is some seriously bizarre shit.

Tyrone Slothrop 11-09-2017 12:07 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
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Originally Posted by Adder (Post 511251)
I guess it's possible that it just took a year and Trump winning for people to realize that they really do need to go out and say no to this crap (and Hank's point about polling could be a factor.

Trump Endowment Effect. It took having him as President for people to realize how much they really hate having him as President.

Tyrone Slothrop 11-09-2017 12:09 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
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Originally Posted by Adder (Post 511256)
most opposition to abortion isn't opposition to abortion

This is nutso. No one likes abortion. Most opposition to abortion is, IMHO, opposition to abortion combined with a wish that there be a better way.

Tyrone Slothrop 11-09-2017 12:12 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 511258)
The only silver lining I'm seeing is, perhaps serious people will stand up and say, we have to start reaching across the aisles and compromising.

I think the problem is with Congress.

What country have you been living in? It's not a question of whether Democrats will reach across the aisle. They fetishize it. The question is whether Republicans are willing to compromise. Do you really see a silver lining there? Are Republican voters preparing to reward Republican politicians for bipartisan compromise?

Uh, no.

sebastian_dangerfield 11-09-2017 12:17 PM

Re: Time for a Crash
 
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Who do you think we get to leisure (if that's even the goal), without removing the need for labor? The whole basis of the Keynes prediction you cite is that technology drives the cost to produce human needs off a cliff.
We don't. We should be "leisuring" more as we decrease the need for labor. But we're not.

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Now you're concerned about a glut of savings that can't find productive investment?? In a world of technologic advancement? That's nonsensical.
No. There are no savings. There are just people spending on fewer things. When all of your entertainment is in a computer in your hand, you don't need to spend as much.

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Yes, you're advancing straight-forward Ludditism (is that a word?).
I'm not advocating it. Tech removes various forms of economic transactions and activities without replacing them. That's just a reality.
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You mean in the presence of changes in our tax and regulatory systems and social programs specifically designed to create rentier capitalism, we've seen rentier capitalism take hold.
That's not anywhere near the total picture. But yes, what you've cited has contributed to rentier capitalism.

ferrets_bueller 11-09-2017 12:18 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
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Originally Posted by Adder (Post 511266)
Exaggerated for effect: Just agree to a wee bit of oppression of women...

Exaggerated for effect: Roe v. Wade was a wee bit of oppression of women who seek abortion on demand in the third trimester.

Exaggerated for effect: The military draft which sent me to kill people, mandatory vaccinations, and speed limits, oppress people.

Abortion is the epitome of the oppression dilemma. Viability has outstripped Roe v. Wade. Drawing lines in this situation is excruciating. Just recognizing that the opposing side is not a satanic cult out to either (depending on where you stand) kill babies or force women into sexual and childbearing slavery would be progress.

The absolutists on both sides are wrong. Find a sliver of common ground and we'd all be better off.

.

Tyrone Slothrop 11-09-2017 02:05 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
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Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller (Post 511275)
The absolutists on both sides are wrong.

The idea that there are pro-choice absolutists and that they are in any way a problem is the sort of High Broderist pipe dream that stands in the way of people better understanding what is really happening in this country.

SEC_Chick 11-09-2017 02:22 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 511276)
The idea that there are pro-choice absolutists and that they are in any way a problem is the sort of High Broderist pipe dream that stands in the way of people better understanding what is really happening in this country.


No offense, but at first I thought this was Adder.

Tyrone Slothrop 11-09-2017 02:30 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 511277)
No offense, but at first I thought this was Adder.

Ow


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