Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You supremely arrogant fuck. You seriously believe you have the omniscience and infallible wisdom to preach to fucking EVERYBODY about what their priorities and concerns should be? Hey mom who lost her gay son to anti-gay violence -- stop your incessant complaining, you are way down the priority chain. Black mom who lost her son to police violence -- good news, you're priority #2! The absolute crazy thing is that you actually pay lip service to how horrible it is that the elite intellectuals are always telling the masses how to think and what to care about. I'm not even going to comment on you relegating misogyny to a fringe problem in flyover land. That is more substantive response than this post deserves.

Here is your number one priority for this board -- bringing the funk. Skull Snaps. "Trespassin'." The Daily Dose:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QggRfHtFpw

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I'm referring to automation of manufacturing being an ongoing process (which probably actually dates to the 1970s), not some sudden shock we won't be able to handle.

Remember not that long ago when 3D printing was going to change everything? Has it? Nope.

Yes, that's my point.

Are you really going to go full transphobia? Seriously? (Or alternatively, you're coming out as trans, in which case, I support you).

Lets do it! You know who isn't going to? The people you voted for. Also, the people who got elected that you couldn't be bothered to vote against.

And yet we're not in an economic catastrophe!

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Really excellent and interesting point.

Going off to think for a while.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Yeah, it was like this time last year when I was in a room full of Bernie Bros debating politics and they kept shushing the two women in the room because they didn't realize what was important.

My wife nearly scalped a couple brother in laws that day, and it would have been entirely justified.

But, flower, do you mind if I hug you?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Virtual cyber e-hugs only.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Solicited?? Ew.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I love the perspective from Earth 2.

You must have seen a different interview than I did. She said she takes responsibility for the loss, but failed to attribute it in any way to her own campaign/strategy/staff. To "I was on the way to winning until the Russians and Comey interfered and speculation regarding collusion." was the gist of it.

She won the popular vote. It seems implausible to me that the Comey letter swung blue collar whites in three states enough to cost her the election, more than say, failure to even visit such state. Even more so given the testimony today that Weiner's computer did in fact have classified information on it that came from Hillary's server.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I'm not going to read it but Nate Silver did some analysis on that topic if you want to check it out. He concludes it probably did.

This is a fun talking point, but it's entirely post-hac. No one thought she needed to spend more time there before Nov. 9, and no one really thought, "I'd a voted for her if she'd have just come here."

Turns out those states were way closer than her team, and literally everyone else, thought. Hindsight is fun!

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I am being elitist. But my priorities are set by objective measures of importance.

I can't help it if you don't know what's best for you and would choose to organize your priorities in a manner that harms your interests over the long term. But I do know a big club of people who think like that, and anyone can join.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Actually, this was a serious debate during the campaign. Nail down the core states or expand the map. She chose an expand the map strategy and it was a mistake. Clearly, she closed in Pennsylvania, with the polling impact of the Comey situation they had an inkling of some movement there. But it was a key strategic mistake.

My view on all of these analyses of who is at fault for the outcome is to not listen to anyone who doesn't start by admitting they were a part of it. She passes that test and should be listened to. The list of people who don't pass that test is very very long, and starts with Bernie, the NY Times, and the Republican Party leadership.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I realize I never responded directly to you on this issue, and really should.

Fuck you.

That is all.

:)

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Howard Stern did a half hour this A.M. on her. He said he kept calling her campaign. If she had gone on his show (he was a supporter) he felt she might have related more to people and it could have made a/the difference.

But I sort of agree her spending time here would have made no difference. Who goes to see a candidate except someone already supporting the candidate? I think they mean "spend more resources?"

Right! Only the polls that I posted said the race was a toss-up. But other than the main national polls, no one saw it coming. And by the way, Hil saw it the last week. President Obama and Hil were here almost every other day- same in Pa.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

STFU dim- Long ago in a galaxy far away, a cat named Darth Vader (didn't wear tailored clothes, but had a certain flair) lost a thing called the Death Star..... TWICE. First time, he could hardly be blamed, but second time the thing was under construction. Rather than realizing that his every resource needed to be put into finishing the construction, he diverted a lot of his resources into chasing every rebel rat into every rat hole. And then the yet to be finished Death Star II got blown up. I don't know if he also diverted internet conversation to gender/race issues (actually he also had species issues to deal with, so he might have really gone far afield), but anyway, a Sebby-like focus on goal 1 might have saved the Empire, is all I'm saying.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

When someone throws a hanging breaking ball like that, you simply can't avoid swinging.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

What earlier appearances may have contributed to is enthusiasm among the troops and ground game. The general rule of them way back in the distant old days when I was doing this stuff was that ground game could move the needle a percentage on your best day, but most of the time is just a battle to stay even because the other person has a ground game too (except Trump didn't).

could it have made a difference if she put 20 or 30 more staff in each state after the convention, had another bunch of little offices, revved up the troops a bit more, did a few favors for local politicos? Yeah, it could have. Would it have? no way to be sure.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

About two minutes, apparently. NTTAWWT.

These facts vindicate what I have always said.
 

With such a narrow margin, it seems highly likely to me that many different things made enough of a difference to cost her the election, leaving all of us free to point to the one that best suits our priors and insist that it was the key factor.

eta: Sounds like David Axelrod agrees with you.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I know W's campaign realized it was about Ohio and Fla. And i know President Obama's campaign realized is was about social media. I assume Hil assumed Mich and Pa were safe blue. Trump's campaign had the insight to think they could change that?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I think Trump was kind of surprised actually.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

actually, still thinking about that one.

it's all about multi-tasking.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

If you were talking to someone in leadership at a tech startup and wanted to tell them how to do better with this problem, what would you tell them to do?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Yup. 100X.

It's beyond a stretch to assert the Trumpkins in the rust belt and PA even paid attention to Comey. Their vote was galvanized months before.

If you drove twenty minutes outside Philly or Pittsburgh, you saw nothing but Trump signs. It was literally a sea of them, for months before the election. And even in the heart of those cities, the HRC signs were minimal. She took the minority vote for granted, and assumed - even though pundits galore were telling her otherwise - that she had the union vote.

I assumed the cities would nevertheless crush the suburban/rural vote. Man, was I wrong.

Almost every union person I know voted for Trump. Same refrain, over and over - "The guys up top are telling us to vote for Hillary, and no one's challenging them. But I'm voting for Trump."

Joe Biden could have held that union vote, and brought out more minority votes (recall, the Clintons didn't make any friends playing the racist card on Obama in the south in 2008), and I think that'd have made all the difference.

Re: On Noember 13th, Young Adder was asked to remove himself from his place of reside
 

I couldn't possibly care less what a person does in regard to sexual practices, identity, or anything else related to those subjects. I'll sign whatever petition you have to use whatever facilities you prefer. I'll vote against every referendum infringing on your right to be or act however you like, and this includes voting against bigotry in the form of "religious tolerance."

But if you use the term "cis" in an accusatory manner in my presence, and suggest I'm somehow privileged because I'm not conflicted about my sexuality or identity, I'm going to laugh at you. And so will a lot of gay and trans people I know, who also find those terms, and the sort of finger wagging of people like Adder that goes along with their use, ludicrous.

This isn't being anti-trans. This is being anti-Adder. A person being silly, being frivolous - engaging as white, privileged sorts like him so often do - needs a reality check.

I'm with you. But save the lingo, and the comical notion any of us true social liberals (people like me, who would let anyone be quite literally anything he wants to be, and fight anyone who tried to inhibit them from such expression) are not appropriately "enlightened."

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You do not want these people working in health care. (Unless you want to stealth euthanize half of the sick.) Imagine the MRSA infection epidemic alone.

I doubt I'll be backed up on this here, but anyone who's spent any time in a mens' room knows, only 66% of us wash our hands after peeing. (There's also a not insignificant crowd who'll emerge from the stall and go straight to the door without stopping at the sink, but I can't guess on that %.)

If you've lived with a male, you know the shower will not be cleaned until the dirt is visible. And by dirt I mean, possibly mold.

Try as we might, we never clean up all the beard hair around the sink. And the toothpaste top is never properly cleaned.

Most guys here are of a more evolved sort than those in the article, but are we care givers? No. We'd make an admirable effort, but we'd still fuck it up... We'd use the wrong bandages, forget to ensure against infection around the suture, give some old person a fatal dose of ritalin instead of cardiac meds.

I regularly observe healthcare workers. I watch them multitask. And given these observations, I have always insisted on female doctors where I could do so.

I know the specialized/educated/trained male brain. And that's just not good enough for me in the care giver world. And the Times is suggesting male laborers and tradesmen should start working in health care?

If I see a guy like me working in a hospital, I'm taking my chances with herbal cures.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

There is a certain amount that techs can do on hiring (have this conversation every day) and promotion, but the decisions I'm involved in are usually board and management, and getting women on tech boards and in senior management helps.

BUT, my point was not an industry one, it was an education one. Many of the biases that drive girls out of science at an early age are among their peers. We need a priority on science and tech in the schools encouraging girls at the same age a lot of boys focus on it - 11, 12. If you asked my daughter the engineer, she'd tell you the best way to do that is to focus on STEAM, integrating arts into the STEM discliplines, especially things that involve constructions, materials, fabrics, building stuff, into the tech curricula, as well as the design elements of web programming that unifies things that are more traditionally girl-focused and boy-focused, AND making sure the focus on team projects penalized those who "take over" teams, because that is a traditional boy/girl domination technique. She'd have 20 other ideas, but one I'd put near the top is listening to her and girls like her. Asking this question of them. They're the right voice to drive the issue.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I can understand why she'd be hesitant, but if he was openly supporting her, that seems like a thing her people should have been able to arrange. Why say no to free supportive media?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It's still about the people who stayed home.

Not sure about that.

Re: On Noember 13th, Young Adder was asked to remove himself from his place of reside
 

What the fuck does that even mean? As far as I know, you're a cis man. Why is that an accusation to you?

You are privileged because you are a cis person. Why does that bother you? How is that even remotely difficult to accept?

There's no reason gay people can't also be transphobic. Please identify your trans friends who don't think that trans people face discrimination that cis people do not. I do not believe they exist.

And yes, I'm sure you personally do not give a fuck about anyone's gender identity, but you just gave us a whole list of things that you think are more important than trans issues because they are more important to you personally. Meanwhile, making a trans woman use the men's room can be literally life-threatening.

When's the last time you, cis man, were afraid to go pee because someone might get violent because they thought you were in the wrong bathroom?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Hey, guys, remember when Hank was telling us how Obamacare was going to ruin everyone's employer-provided health care? Fun times.

What happens to an issue deferred?
 

This is pissing me off. Truly. And we've discussed this idea that if Hillary had been more willing to make shit up in every jurisdiction in swing states about how she would bring back evaporated jobs than actually propose achievable job-related goals, she'd be in better shape. We also discussed how much of Trump's support is just straight up racist, xenophobic, anti-Muslim, misogynist bullshit. But if you buy this Sebby/Maher approach where we put all issues that are important to the fucking people who actually make up the Democratic Party on back burners, you think that's the solution to a big win?

And when we talk about the economy-related issues important to swing voters, that's just another way of saying, "Let's save poor and middle class whites' jobs." Because racism and the effects of institutional racism affects income for blacks and Hispanics in a much more direct and impactful way. When the economy is good, blacks' unemployment rates are way higher. When it goes bad, they're the first to lose their jobs, last to recover, and experience levels of unemployment multiples greater than whites. Blacks are told, "Pull yourself up by your fucking bootstraps" by whites who are complaining about the fucking coal jobs they are furious they lost. And I'm not even going to discuss the threat to personal safety that minorities would like to address with "identity politics" that is so low on white people's list of priorities. But the fact that white people place terrorism about 18 notches higher because they are included as targets seems significant, doesn't it?

I hate using the term, "privilege," because it's one of those terms those on the right have managed to demonize such that people's brains shut the fuck down whenever they hear it. But this is the absolute height of fucking white people privilege. So, if you're with Sebby on this, you and he can take turns sucking all the dicks.

TM

Re: What happens to an issue deferred?
 

I never took an economics class. i have no idea what sebby is talking about half the time. I do know that telling society to prioritize solving the problems he mentions is absurd, and privileged. I was making a dumb joke.

Or if you want a meaning from my Star Wars equivalence, how is this: Prioritizing solutions as he suggests REQUIRES a dictatorial power like that of Darth Vader. No one in America has such an ability.

PS Hil promised jobs to Michigan.

Re: What happens to an issue deferred?
 

Sorry for the whiff.

TM

Re: What happens to an issue deferred?
 

Neither does he.

Re: On Noember 13th, Young Adder was asked to remove himself from his place of reside
 

It's part of this silly new language used by people overly fixated on identities. Reminds me of that "bro" lingo people used a few years back, or the inside lingo used by finance people.

You realize that's demeaning to people who do not identify with their sex.

It doesn't. Your suggestion I should consider myself privileged for this biological quirk offends me intellectually. Why? Because it's frivolous. I go about my day; others go about theirs. They've no obligation to sympathize or empathize with any facet of my identity. And I've no obligation to do so regarding theirs. The only obligation we have to one another is absolute tolerance and defense of each others' rights to live in whatever manner makes us happy.

I don't think any gay or trans person I know would disagree with those statements. Where they'd disagree is with people like you telling the "don't give a fuck; live and let live" crowd like me that I have some obligation to recognize I'm privileged.

I'm aligned with anyone fighting intolerance. But I've no duty to empathize or sympathize with anyone. Consider just how silly that concept is... If I have a duty to empathize with you and recognize that I'm privileged, then you'd have the same duty to empathize with me and understand why I'm not inclined to empathize with you. And that's just one of the comical conundrums into which this stuff devolves.

Yes, the bathroom assault concerns of 5% of society are on par in terms of significance with climate change, and our creation of a domestic police state that jails more people than than the closest other nation by a measure of two.

You're right. We need a Kyoto Treaty to set baselines on how this is to be handled.

You're making my point of yesterday, by the way. By making every gripe as loud as every other one, we, the masses, are precluding any serious change.

A million disparate grievances become noise. Solid ones (the climate's fucked, cops are shooting us... and we have film of it, gay marriage is a moral imperative, etc.) are sticky and actually create change. So yeah, it's about priorities, and about those of us who are smart enough to understand how things work emphasizing things linearly, in terms of immediate importance to the greatest number of people. Putting so many complaints into one barbaric yawp,* and demanding empathy, is just a giant Occupy Wall Street.

_____
* "Leaves of grass, my ass." - H. Simpson

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

OK, but I really was asking what a startup can do differently and better.

Re: What happens to an issue deferred?
 

"Terrorism" basically means violence by brown people with political/ideological aims. Violence by white people with political/ideological aims (Dylan Roof, that dude in Quebec, etc.) is not seen as terrorism.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Like.

Re: What happens to an issue deferred?
 

"Terrorist" is what our govt calls people with whom we used to do business (bin Laden, Hussein, Gaddafi) after our deals with them are concluded, they are no longer useful to us, they know too much, or we've screwed them and they've threatened retaliation.

See also: "Drug Kingpin," as applied to Manuel Noriega.

Re: What happens to an issue deferred?
 

(if A then B) does not mean (if B then A). Yes, the government has called those people terrorists. No one thinks that's what the word means. Also, all of those people were brown, not that you disagreed with me.

Re: On Noember 13th, Young Adder was asked to remove himself from his place of reside
 

It's a means of distinguishing between trans people and non-trans people. You're really stretching to find a problem with that.

You're doing a whole lot to demonstrate your lack of privilege, bro.

How much of your day is spent wondering whether someone else is going to harm you?

Dude. You declared a universal list of priorities that you argued everyone should agree with. I pointed out that maybe people might have different priorities than yours because they face issues you don't face.

This has led to silly ranting on your part.

I mean, if you want to be a decent human being you do. But we know you don't care about that.

Yes. They threaten real people's existence, just like those things do.

This is stupid and not at all how the world works. You make progress where you can while you can.

Only because you don't value some of them.

Man. You think progress is linear? You can't possibly think that.

That's a sure-fire way to never have to address the grievances of any minority.

ETA: Oh, and btw, that's not what your list does. For some reason you care about cops shooting tiny numbers of black people than you do certain other things. Weird, really. Maybe politics isn't just a straightforward weighting of collective utility.