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-   -   A fashion board in which sometimes we'll remember to post spoiler warnings (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=833)

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 02-13-2009 10:52 AM

Re: Is this weird or is it just me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dtb (Post 381440)
ut.

So, is it me? Or is this a little odd (not the fact that two different people would use the same sort of arcane phrase in the space of a week, but that they would each use it in reference to seemingly inappropriate objects)?

It is odd, but consistent with my observation that people have given up on original locution and instead rely primarily on cliches to state their thoughts. They have not, however, paid much attention to the actual cliches they use, so that everyday speech is ever more filled with malapropisms.

Fugee 02-13-2009 10:52 AM

Re: Is this weird or is it just me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dtb (Post 381440)
Last week, I was at my son's hockey tournament, and I overheard another mother commenting about one of the boys (who is 9 or 10, tall for his age, and thin) to her friend, "Isn't Nicholas a tall, cool drink of water?" This struck me as bizarre, because I always thought that comment had sexual undertones, and she was talking about a 9-year-old boy, but I didn't think about it too much.

Then yesterday, I was talking with a friend at a coffee shop in my booming metropolis, and he says (in reference to another guy), "He's a long, tall drink of water..." and I nearly fell off my chair. The guy I was talking to is not gay or anything, and neither is the other guy he was talking about.

So, is it me? Or is this a little odd (not the fact that two different people would use the same sort of arcane phrase in the space of a week, but that they would each use it in reference to seemingly inappropriate objects)?

I never thought it had sexual overtones but was just meant to describe someone who was tall and lean. However, I've only heard it used for adults and usually about someone who is also attractive, so it could have sexual overtones I've missed. Saying it about a child is a little weird.

I wonder if that phrase has been used recently in a movie or on TV and that's why people are using it. Either that or it's an affectation of the manor born who populate your little burg!

So are you getting a green visor and red pencil for your copy editing role?

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 02-13-2009 10:53 AM

Re: Is this weird or is it just me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dtb (Post 381440)
Last week, I was at my son's hockey tournament, and I overheard another mother commenting about one of the boys (who is 9 or 10, tall for his age, and thin) to her friend, "Isn't Nicholas a tall, cool drink of water?" This struck me as bizarre, because I always thought that comment had sexual undertones, and she was talking about a 9-year-old boy, but I didn't think about it too much.

Then yesterday, I was talking with a friend at a coffee shop in my booming metropolis, and he says (in reference to another guy), "He's a long, tall drink of water..." and I nearly fell off my chair. The guy I was talking to is not gay or anything, and neither is the other guy he was talking about.

So, is it me? Or is this a little odd (not the fact that two different people would use the same sort of arcane phrase in the space of a week, but that they would each use it in reference to seemingly inappropriate objects)?

You need to listen to more country music. Any sexual connotations arise in faux-ironic use by urban sophisticates. The salt of the earth uses it without innuendo.

How's the frost out on the pumpkin?

Tyrone Slothrop 02-13-2009 11:24 AM

Re: A fashion board in which sometimes we'll remember to post spoiler warnings
 
He was better when he wrote about robots.

Tyrone Slothrop 02-13-2009 11:32 AM

Off Orwell's corner, ho.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) (Post 381445)
It is odd, but consistent with my observation that people have given up on original locution and instead rely primarily on cliches to state their thoughts. They have not, however, paid much attention to the actual cliches they use, so that everyday speech is ever more filled with malapropisms.

Most people who bother with the matter at all would admit that the English language is in a bad way, but it is generally assumed that we cannot by conscious action do anything about it.

A man may take to drink because he feels himself to be a failure, and then fail all the more completely because he drinks. It is rather the same thing that is happening to the English language. It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts. The point is that the process is reversible. Modern English, especially written English, is full of bad habits which spread by imitation and which can be avoided if one is willing to take the necessary trouble.

A newly invented metaphor assists thought by evoking a visual image, while on the other hand a metaphor which is technically "dead" (e.g. iron resolution) has in effect reverted to being an ordinary word and can generally be used without loss of vividness. But in between these two classes there is a huge dump of worn-out metaphors which have lost all evocative power and are merely used because they save people the trouble of inventing phrases for themselves. Examples are: Ring the changes on, take up the cudgel for, toe the line, ride roughshod over, stand shoulder to shoulder with, play into the hands of, no axe to grind, grist to the mill, fishing in troubled waters, on the order of the day, Achilles' heel, swan song, hotbed. Many of these are used without knowledge of their meaning (what is a "rift," for instance?), and incompatible metaphors are frequently mixed, a sure sign that the writer is not interested in what he is saying. Some metaphors now current have been twisted out of their original meaning withouth those who use them even being aware of the fact. For example, toe the line is sometimes written as tow the line. Another example is the hammer and the anvil, now always used with the implication that the anvil gets the worst of it. In real life it is always the anvil that breaks the hammer, never the other way about: a writer who stopped to think what he was saying would avoid perverting the original phrase.

As I have tried to show, modern writing at its worst does not consist in picking out words for the sake of their meaning and inventing images in order to make the meaning clearer. It consists in gumming together long strips of words which have already been set in order by someone else, and making the results presentable by sheer humbug. The attraction of this way of writing is that it is easy. It is easier -- even quicker, once you have the habit -- to say In my opinion it is not an unjustifiable assumption that than to say I think. If you use ready-made phrases, you not only don't have to hunt about for the words; you also don't have to bother with the rhythms of your sentences since these phrases are generally so arranged as to be more or less euphonious. When you are composing in a hurry -- when you are dictating to a stenographer, for instance, or making a public speech -- it is natural to fall into a pretentious, Latinized style. Tags like a consideration which we should do well to bear in mind or a conclusion to which all of us would readily assent will save many a sentence from coming down with a bump. By using stale metaphors, similes, and idioms, you save much mental effort, at the cost of leaving your meaning vague, not only for your reader but for yourself.

Pretty Little Flower 02-13-2009 11:44 AM

Re: Off Orwell's corner, ho.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 381451)
Most people who bother with the matter at all would admit that the English language is in a bad way, but it is generally assumed that we cannot by conscious action do anything about it.

A man may take to drink because he feels himself to be a failure, and then fail all the more completely because he drinks. It is rather the same thing that is happening to the English language. It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts. The point is that the process is reversible. Modern English, especially written English, is full of bad habits which spread by imitation and which can be avoided if one is willing to take the necessary trouble.

A newly invented metaphor assists thought by evoking a visual image, while on the other hand a metaphor which is technically "dead" (e.g. iron resolution) has in effect reverted to being an ordinary word and can generally be used without loss of vividness. But in between these two classes there is a huge dump of worn-out metaphors which have lost all evocative power and are merely used because they save people the trouble of inventing phrases for themselves. Examples are: Ring the changes on, take up the cudgel for, toe the line, ride roughshod over, stand shoulder to shoulder with, play into the hands of, no axe to grind, grist to the mill, fishing in troubled waters, on the order of the day, Achilles' heel, swan song, hotbed. Many of these are used without knowledge of their meaning (what is a "rift," for instance?), and incompatible metaphors are frequently mixed, a sure sign that the writer is not interested in what he is saying. Some metaphors now current have been twisted out of their original meaning withouth those who use them even being aware of the fact. For example, toe the line is sometimes written as tow the line. Another example is the hammer and the anvil, now always used with the implication that the anvil gets the worst of it. In real life it is always the anvil that breaks the hammer, never the other way about: a writer who stopped to think what he was saying would avoid perverting the original phrase.

As I have tried to show, modern writing at its worst does not consist in picking out words for the sake of their meaning and inventing images in order to make the meaning clearer. It consists in gumming together long strips of words which have already been set in order by someone else, and making the results presentable by sheer humbug. The attraction of this way of writing is that it is easy. It is easier -- even quicker, once you have the habit -- to say In my opinion it is not an unjustifiable assumption that than to say I think. If you use ready-made phrases, you not only don't have to hunt about for the words; you also don't have to bother with the rhythms of your sentences since these phrases are generally so arranged as to be more or less euphonious. When you are composing in a hurry -- when you are dictating to a stenographer, for instance, or making a public speech -- it is natural to fall into a pretentious, Latinized style. Tags like a consideration which we should do well to bear in mind or a conclusion to which all of us would readily assent will save many a sentence from coming down with a bump. By using stale metaphors, similes, and idioms, you save much mental effort, at the cost of leaving your meaning vague, not only for your reader but for yourself.


This got dtb quite aroused. It is a shame you did not write it.

Hank Chinaski 02-13-2009 11:48 AM

Re: Is this weird or is it just me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dtb (Post 381440)
Last week, I was at my son's hockey tournament, and I overheard another mother commenting about one of the boys (who is 9 or 10, tall for his age, and thin) to her friend, "Isn't Nicholas a tall, cool drink of water?" This struck me as bizarre, because I always thought that comment had sexual undertones, and she was talking about a 9-year-old boy, but I didn't think about it too much.

Then yesterday, I was talking with a friend at a coffee shop in my booming metropolis, and he says (in reference to another guy), "He's a long, tall drink of water..." and I nearly fell off my chair. The guy I was talking to is not gay or anything, and neither is the other guy he was talking about.

So, is it me? Or is this a little odd (not the fact that two different people would use the same sort of arcane phrase in the space of a week, but that they would each use it in reference to seemingly inappropriate objects)?

since it is mainly used about a guy, I don't know if it carries the meaning "he is good looking and i am attracted to him." or just the "good looking" part.

I've always heard it (not directed at me:() as only meaning the first. And that wouldn't be weird.

Like people told me my son would "break a lot of hearts." That means good looking, even though he might have been 10 only.

Hank Chinaski 02-13-2009 11:51 AM

Re: Off Orwell's corner, ho.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 381451)
Most people who bother with the matter at all would admit that the English language is in a bad way, but it is generally assumed that we cannot by conscious action do anything about it.

A man may take to drink because he feels himself to be a failure, and then fail all the more completely because he drinks. It is rather the same thing that is happening to the English language. It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts. The point is that the process is reversible. Modern English, especially written English, is full of bad habits which spread by imitation and which can be avoided if one is willing to take the necessary trouble.

A newly invented metaphor assists thought by evoking a visual image, while on the other hand a metaphor which is technically "dead" (e.g. iron resolution) has in effect reverted to being an ordinary word and can generally be used without loss of vividness. But in between these two classes there is a huge dump of worn-out metaphors which have lost all evocative power and are merely used because they save people the trouble of inventing phrases for themselves. Examples are: Ring the changes on, take up the cudgel for, toe the line, ride roughshod over, stand shoulder to shoulder with, play into the hands of, no axe to grind, grist to the mill, fishing in troubled waters, on the order of the day, Achilles' heel, swan song, hotbed. Many of these are used without knowledge of their meaning (what is a "rift," for instance?), and incompatible metaphors are frequently mixed, a sure sign that the writer is not interested in what he is saying. Some metaphors now current have been twisted out of their original meaning withouth those who use them even being aware of the fact. For example, toe the line is sometimes written as tow the line. Another example is the hammer and the anvil, now always used with the implication that the anvil gets the worst of it. In real life it is always the anvil that breaks the hammer, never the other way about: a writer who stopped to think what he was saying would avoid perverting the original phrase.

As I have tried to show, modern writing at its worst does not consist in picking out words for the sake of their meaning and inventing images in order to make the meaning clearer. It consists in gumming together long strips of words which have already been set in order by someone else, and making the results presentable by sheer humbug. The attraction of this way of writing is that it is easy. It is easier -- even quicker, once you have the habit -- to say In my opinion it is not an unjustifiable assumption that than to say I think. If you use ready-made phrases, you not only don't have to hunt about for the words; you also don't have to bother with the rhythms of your sentences since these phrases are generally so arranged as to be more or less euphonious. When you are composing in a hurry -- when you are dictating to a stenographer, for instance, or making a public speech -- it is natural to fall into a pretentious, Latinized style. Tags like a consideration which we should do well to bear in mind or a conclusion to which all of us would readily assent will save many a sentence from coming down with a bump. By using stale metaphors, similes, and idioms, you save much mental effort, at the cost of leaving your meaning vague, not only for your reader but for yourself.

whiff

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 02-13-2009 12:11 PM

Re: Off Orwell's corner, ho.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 381451)
Most people who bother with the matter at all would admit that the English language is in a bad way, but it is generally assumed that we cannot by conscious action do anything about it.

A man may take to drink because he feels himself to be a failure, and then fail all the more completely because he drinks. It is rather the same thing that is happening to the English language. It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts. The point is that the process is reversible. Modern English, especially written English, is full of bad habits which spread by imitation and which can be avoided if one is willing to take the necessary trouble.

A newly invented metaphor assists thought by evoking a visual image, while on the other hand a metaphor which is technically "dead" (e.g. iron resolution) has in effect reverted to being an ordinary word and can generally be used without loss of vividness. But in between these two classes there is a huge dump of worn-out metaphors which have lost all evocative power and are merely used because they save people the trouble of inventing phrases for themselves. Examples are: Ring the changes on, take up the cudgel for, toe the line, ride roughshod over, stand shoulder to shoulder with, play into the hands of, no axe to grind, grist to the mill, fishing in troubled waters, on the order of the day, Achilles' heel, swan song, hotbed. Many of these are used without knowledge of their meaning (what is a "rift," for instance?), and incompatible metaphors are frequently mixed, a sure sign that the writer is not interested in what he is saying. Some metaphors now current have been twisted out of their original meaning withouth those who use them even being aware of the fact. For example, toe the line is sometimes written as tow the line. Another example is the hammer and the anvil, now always used with the implication that the anvil gets the worst of it. In real life it is always the anvil that breaks the hammer, never the other way about: a writer who stopped to think what he was saying would avoid perverting the original phrase.

As I have tried to show, modern writing at its worst does not consist in picking out words for the sake of their meaning and inventing images in order to make the meaning clearer. It consists in gumming together long strips of words which have already been set in order by someone else, and making the results presentable by sheer humbug. The attraction of this way of writing is that it is easy. It is easier -- even quicker, once you have the habit -- to say In my opinion it is not an unjustifiable assumption that than to say I think. If you use ready-made phrases, you not only don't have to hunt about for the words; you also don't have to bother with the rhythms of your sentences since these phrases are generally so arranged as to be more or less euphonious. When you are composing in a hurry -- when you are dictating to a stenographer, for instance, or making a public speech -- it is natural to fall into a pretentious, Latinized style. Tags like a consideration which we should do well to bear in mind or a conclusion to which all of us would readily assent will save many a sentence from coming down with a bump. By using stale metaphors, similes, and idioms, you save much mental effort, at the cost of leaving your meaning vague, not only for your reader but for yourself.


dtb has enough copyediting to do without having to go through your crap.

ThurgreedMarshall 02-13-2009 12:18 PM

Re: Is this weird or is it just me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 381447)
You need to listen to more country music. Any sexual connotations arise in faux-ironic use by urban sophisticates. The salt of the earth uses it without innuendo.

Why should we care how the salt of the earth uses it (especially if we need to listen to more country music to catch the meaning)?

TM

Pretty Little Flower 02-13-2009 12:44 PM

Re: Is this weird or is it just me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 381454)
since it is mainly used about a guy, I don't know if it carries the meaning "he is good looking and i am attracted to him." or just the "good looking" part.

I've always heard it (not directed at me:() as only meaning the first. And that wouldn't be weird.

Like people told me my son would "break a lot of hearts." That means good looking, even though he might have been 10 only.

Maybe it just meant that they thought your son would grow up to be a manipulative asshole. I mean, he could be breaking the hearts of a lot of really unattractive women.

LessinSF 02-13-2009 12:47 PM

Re: Is this weird or is it just me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 381467)
Maybe it just meant that they thought your son would grow up to be a manipulative asshole. I mean, he could be breaking the hearts of a lot of really unattractive women.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-07/0932377247

Pretty Little Flower 02-13-2009 12:49 PM

Re: Off Orwell's corner, ho.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 381451)
Most people who bother with the matter at all would admit that the English language is in a bad way, but it is generally assumed that we cannot by conscious action do anything about it.

A man may take to drink because he feels himself to be a failure, and then fail all the more completely because he drinks. It is rather the same thing that is happening to the English language. It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts. The point is that the process is reversible. Modern English, especially written English, is full of bad habits which spread by imitation and which can be avoided if one is willing to take the necessary trouble.

A newly invented metaphor assists thought by evoking a visual image, while on the other hand a metaphor which is technically "dead" (e.g. iron resolution) has in effect reverted to being an ordinary word and can generally be used without loss of vividness. But in between these two classes there is a huge dump of worn-out metaphors which have lost all evocative power and are merely used because they save people the trouble of inventing phrases for themselves. Examples are: Ring the changes on, take up the cudgel for, toe the line, ride roughshod over, stand shoulder to shoulder with, play into the hands of, no axe to grind, grist to the mill, fishing in troubled waters, on the order of the day, Achilles' heel, swan song, hotbed. Many of these are used without knowledge of their meaning (what is a "rift," for instance?), and incompatible metaphors are frequently mixed, a sure sign that the writer is not interested in what he is saying. Some metaphors now current have been twisted out of their original meaning withouth those who use them even being aware of the fact. For example, toe the line is sometimes written as tow the line. Another example is the hammer and the anvil, now always used with the implication that the anvil gets the worst of it. In real life it is always the anvil that breaks the hammer, never the other way about: a writer who stopped to think what he was saying would avoid perverting the original phrase.

As I have tried to show, modern writing at its worst does not consist in picking out words for the sake of their meaning and inventing images in order to make the meaning clearer. It consists in gumming together long strips of words which have already been set in order by someone else, and making the results presentable by sheer humbug. The attraction of this way of writing is that it is easy. It is easier -- even quicker, once you have the habit -- to say In my opinion it is not an unjustifiable assumption that than to say I think. If you use ready-made phrases, you not only don't have to hunt about for the words; you also don't have to bother with the rhythms of your sentences since these phrases are generally so arranged as to be more or less euphonious. When you are composing in a hurry -- when you are dictating to a stenographer, for instance, or making a public speech -- it is natural to fall into a pretentious, Latinized style. Tags like a consideration which we should do well to bear in mind or a conclusion to which all of us would readily assent will save many a sentence from coming down with a bump. By using stale metaphors, similes, and idioms, you save much mental effort, at the cost of leaving your meaning vague, not only for your reader but for yourself.

In honor of Orwell, I used the expression "we don't have a dog in that fight" in a conversation with opposing counsel this morning. I used it appropriately, though.

I think. I am not involved in a lot of dog fighting.

Hank Chinaski 02-13-2009 12:49 PM

Re: Is this weird or is it just me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 381467)
Maybe it just meant that they thought your son would grow up to be a manipulative asshole. I mean, he could be breaking the hearts of a lot of really unattractive women.

a manipulative asshole doesn't break hearts. he just strings women along for years, often several at a time, with no real intention of ever committing to them in any fashion. What is the advantage of dumping someone you might want to use the next week. a manipulative asshole wouldn't break a heart, he slowly drains them perhaps.

An important rule of advocacy is to ensure you've made the best word choices at the crux of your argument if you wish to score points.

Fugee 02-13-2009 01:00 PM

Re: Is this weird or is it just me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 381472)
a manipulative asshole doesn't break hearts. he just strings women along for years, often several at a time, with no real intention of ever committing to them in any fashion. What is the advantage of dumping someone you might want to use the next week. a manipulative asshole wouldn't break a heart, he slowly drains them perhaps.

An important rule of advocacy is to ensure you've made the best word choices at the crux of your argument if you wish to score points.

Beg to differ. Manipulative assholes do break hearts.


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