Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I think the GOP is defending Franken as a preemptive move. They know their closets are full of some seriously demented shit, and they want to be appear non-partisan when they have to defend a deluge of David Vitters, Denny Hasterts, and Bob Packwoods.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It's almost like doing so helps their credibility when they turn to defending Moore and Trump.

He's not going to do that.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Two things:

1. We can be the non-pussy grabbing party without rushing to remove Franken who was accused of kissing someone a little too enthusiastically and squeezing asses. Punish him. If it's more than that, remove him. But the idea that we can't criticize Trump or Moore because Franken is in office is just dumb.

2. Wanting to be the non-pussy grabbing party is not about political strategy. Women shouldn't be assaulted. And neither party should tolerate it. That shouldn't be something either party takes a political stance on. And it shouldn't be something we're trying to run on. But we all need to understand that there are degrees of this type of behavior, some of which requires a measured response.

People do inappropriate shit. A woman at the Holiday Party about 4 years ago grabbed my dick at the bar. I've had women brush their hands against my ass or straight up grab it. None of these people should lose their jobs. If one of the partners I worked for grabbed my dick and said, "You want to be staffed on that next deal, you'll be quiet about this," they should be fired. Degrees.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

They spent three weeks saying that.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I saw tweets this morning saying that WashPo is preparing a story that will out as many as 40 alleged hill harassers.

ETA: I'm still not exactly clear what Trent Franks did, but credit where it's due that Paul Ryan told him to resign.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

They should if you felt harassed and complained about it. This is unacceptable behavior at work.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

There's still no there there. The worst allegations against Franken are that he grabbed someone's ass in a photo, and that he said "It's my right as an entertainer" while trying to kiss someone. The former is dispensed with by apology (if he even did it, which he says he cannot recall). The latter either did not happen or was a joke taken literally.

"Believe the women regardless of due process" may apply where there are numerous quite similar allegations. Moore's case meets that standard. His methods and approach were the same in each instance. Franken's case does not meet that standard.

At worst, Franken was a fratty jackass. To borrow from a classic tune, that "ain't no hanging matter... ain't no capital crime."*




___
* "Stray Cat Blues," Beggar's Banquet (1967). A song you most definitely can never play on the radio in the present climate. But should probably be played as intro to news stories on Moore for ironic effect.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It's always fun to hear from a bunch of men which transgressions against women are serious or not.

Anyway, as I've said, the politics and optics matter here a lot. I think not being an ongoing distraction and not being a liability on the ticket in the future are the key factors here. And, of course, things would have played out differently if the overall context was different.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I'm going to say this as an overall comment because I'm seeing it in each of your responses below. Fix your fucking tone. You are not in a position to be talking in this patronizing manner on this issue or any other.

It's a feeding frenzy. I know you've paid attention to how every single issue in the recent history of issues is treated this way until the next shiny object pops up.

Repeating yourself doesn't address my response the first 3 times you said this. What bleeding? Just because it's in the news doesn't necessarily mean that there is bleeding. If your point was Flower's (and we both know it wasn't) and the Party thought Franken was in real danger of losing his seat, okay. That can be debated. But this idea that we are being damaged just because the topic is on the news for more than a couple of weeks is stupid. If you think that not removing Franken gives people in Alabama license to vote for Moore, you're nuts. They're voting for him or not voting for him already no matter what the Democrats do to Franken.

I find this tactic of yours to be very annoying. Franken asked for an investigation which he wanted to cooperate with. If getting to the bottom of something and then taking action means "we'll handle it later" to you, then how the fuck are you even a lawyer?

This response is grating and condescending. We should proceed as a party based on the fact that some people think that an investigation isn't actually occurring? This can't possibly be your response.

Allegations. Is that the new standard? Franken clearly didn't agree with a few of them. But now if a person in a position of influence does something wrong, we can just get a group of people accuse that person of similar wrongdoing and that's the end of them?

There needs to be some kind of balance when it comes to believing accusers and granting the accused some form of defense. If the last 3 accusations against Franken turn out to be bullshit, we chalk up his losing a senatorial seat to tough luck?

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I'm going to bet he asked a staffer to act as a surrogate.

And I wouldn't be surprised if he offered her a raise to do so, which gets into office finance violations.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Right. And the whole Party has bled to death as a result.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Maybe. Should she be disqualified from holding office 20 years from now?

She misread the situation. She was drinking. Her career shouldn't be over as a result of it. And she shouldn't have to forfeit her future in another field either. If it was behavior that was uncovered after being looked into as being constant, that's a different story. All I'm saying is Franken should have had the benefit of an investigation before bouncing him.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

There are objective standards. This is not an issue where a person gets to say, "I feel that I was harassed, so I was harassed."

Nor can one say, "Only women may define harassment."

That kind of thinking is dangerous.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Stop it. You're doing as much to define what amounts to what is serious and what isn't as everyone else. If Franken was a serial massager of shoulders, should he be fired? Is that for you to say?

You can't possibly be saying that men have to cede all right to express an opinion as to what amounts to harassment and what doesn't. Jesus.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

There are some obvious differences that anyone with a brain can see in all of this. Though you'll see both men and women (not just on Fox, but other places too) who can't see them.

I am among those who don't yet see exactly what makes Al Franken's situation so bad he needs to go, but we aren't privy to what might still come out from elsewhere and it's been a steady drip (albeit a drip that seems to be being fed). So I'm also not going to get too hyper about him leaving.

Likewise, I don't yet see the fire behind the smoke in Trent Franks case. It may be we'll soon discover that the request to serve as a surrogate involved a rather unusual form of direct insemination in which the woman first donned a saddle, or that there were payments to be made that were less than appropriate, or that there was something else so twisted only an Alabama Republican could come up with it in the arrangement. I suspect his goal is that we'll never know.