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https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-c...isplaced-scale TM |
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TM's example of being groped once, by a drunk person, does not meet the standard for significant punishment. It was a one time aberrant incident. Harassment, by its most elementary definition, requires repetitive and threatening behavior. An adequate amount of either alone will suffice, of course, but a one time aberrant act? Not harassment. |
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And the conversation we're having about Franken's actions and how we should deal with them shouldn't be addressed and discussed? We should squelch this conversation altogether simply because we keep having it? I would argue that as we navigate this new reality, this is precisely the time when we should be talking about what the appropriate reaction and/or punishment should be to different sorts of inappropriate behavior. TM |
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Because in every other sense it does. If this incident were reported to HR, the person would certainly be punished, perhaps even fired. If TM were to sue for assault, he'd have a case. If he were to sue for hostile work environment, it would certainly be a salient fact in his favor (I'm no expert so don't know if he'd need more). Sounds actionable to me under any applicable legal standard. You and I don't care, though, because TM doesn't care. That's a subjective standard. |
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I'm not as concerned with women being infantilized as I am with them suffering discrimination. The corporate mindset is always risk minimization. If the standard for what constitutes harassment becomes exceedingly low, or subjective (how the harassed person feels, with no consideration of reasonable objective standards), the prudent business decision will be to avoid hiring women. This of course creates even worse predators. Any man or group of men who make a lot of money for a company will be protected. Women will not be hired to work with them, and the problem at the root of all of this will persist. |
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Objectively, his response matched the behavior. One aberrant act should not be met with a complaint to HR. And, that the act was actionable, which I agree it was, and that HR would have taken action, does not mean such a response would be reasonable. HR is a risk minimization department in these cases. Corporations make financial decisions. What one can complain and acquire redress for in a corporate setting resembles what is "reasonable" about as much as a Hyundia does a Bentley. |
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I have not made any declarations about what is or isn't harassment. I have said that there is a scale when it comes to inappropriate sexual behavior and we should examine how best to deal with different types of behavior depending on where it falls on that scale. You're basically saying that multiple accusations no matter where they fall on that scale create an atmosphere in which the Democratic Party is being bled to death and can't move forward with any other issue until the accused is removed. You are trying to avoid a substantive conversation about the underlying behavior and how to deal with it collectively by hiding behind politics and this idea that men should be listening while implying that I'm not. That's garbage. TM |
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It is natural to always try to reach for objective standards because we all want to know what the rules are. But harassment is very subjective because the act (depending on how serious it is) can be seen in many different ways by many different people. For example, the impact of someone kissing one person on the cheek a little to close to someone's lips can be taken very differently depending on a number of factors, including (i) the industry/business in which the people work, (ii) the culture of the person doing the kissing, (iii) who the person doing the kissing is, how powerful they are, etc., (iv) who the person being kissed is, whether they are subordinate or not, etc. (v) where it happens, (vi) when and how often it happens, etc. It is impossible to remove these considerations and many others from a great deal of behavior that may be inappropriate when determining whether it amounts to harassment. TM |
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