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-   -   Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=880)

Replaced_Texan 06-29-2017 01:55 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 508489)
This, of course, can be said about almost anything.

When you look at those red states that are supposedly well governed, look to a few metrics, like number of people living in poverty, number of people insured, number of gun deaths, crime rates (Alabama beats NYC for violent crime by a country mile), etc.

Try it. Identify five metrics that you think are important. Pick five diverse red states (say, Utah, Texas, Alabama, Nebraska, and Kentucky) and five diverse blue states (say, California, NY, Virginia, Colorado and Vermont). Compare them.

Then let's talk.

I think you'll find the Red Staters who feel like Red States are such great models are people who are well off and mostly white. You'll get a very different view in El Paso than you will in rural Utah.
FWIW, sometimes it's hard to tell "Red" and "Blue". Texas at the state level is very red, but most of the cities are run by Blue administrations. Houston is even more complicated because the city is more or less run by Democrats but the county is run more or less by Republicans. I tend to think that makes us more pragmatic than everything else, but I'm tending towards thinking that life would be a lot easier if every district were a swing district.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 06-29-2017 01:57 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 508490)
It's hard enough to measure how state governments are doing, and much harder still if you measure characteristics of the state itself as a proxy.
Yes, well, but that is why we hire them.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 06-29-2017 02:41 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 508491)
FWIW, sometimes it's hard to tell "Red" and "Blue". Texas at the state level is very red, but most of the cities are run by Blue administrations. Houston is even more complicated because the city is more or less run by Democrats but the county is run more or less by Republicans. I tend to think that makes us more pragmatic than everything else, but I'm tending towards thinking that life would be a lot easier if every district were a swing district.
And Mass. of course has a Republican Governor.

It can be productive on the days they work together. But that's not every day.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-29-2017 03:15 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
This. ZOMG, the emails. What happens when you let email marketers own your brand.

Pretty Little Flower 06-29-2017 03:54 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 508494)
This. ZOMG, the emails. What happens when you let email marketers own your brand.
http://static3.businessinsider.com/i...ytrumptime.jpg

James Brown Thursday on the Daily Dose. My Thang:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtLrbJFwBWs

sebastian_dangerfield 06-29-2017 04:00 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 508481)
I think you fail to grasp that evolved society lives in a Post-Morality Pragmatic Utopia in which empathy has become obsolete.
Say what you will, but we post-moral pragmatists are carbon friendly. We have only as many kids as we can afford (including paying for higher ed), which means fewer cars, less use of fuel, less energy consumption per household, less food consumption (lower methane!), less water consumption... hell -- less everything!

We also try not to send Junior into the student loan system, which means lower chance of default on taxpayer's dimes. And with the money we save voting for lower taxes every chance we get, we avoid taxing the state with benefit costs in our dotage.

We who don't believe anyone is owed or entitled to anything tend to be pretty solid stewards, as we expect to be treated with indifference.

Does the Moral State take care of us some? Of course it does. But we try to avoid having to depend on it. (Don't confuse the "hands off my Medicare" folks with us... they're dependents to the core -- big govt bigots.) We don't want to need any more than we want to be needed.

It's perhaps a chilly island, maybe a little mean to some, but it's got a low carbon footprint, and it tries to run in the black.

Pretty Little Flower 06-29-2017 04:06 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 508496)
Say what you will, but we post-moral pragmatists are carbon friendly. We have only as many kids as we can afford (including paying for higher ed), which means fewer cars, less use of fuel, less energy consumption per household, less food consumption (lower methane!), less water consumption... hell -- less everything!

We also try not to send Junior into the student loan system, which means lower chance of default on taxpayer's dimes. And with the money we save voting for lower taxes every chance we get, we avoid taxing the state with benefit costs in our dotage.

We who don't believe anyone is owed or entitled to anything tend to be pretty solid stewards, as we expect to be treated with indifference.

Does the Moral State take care of us some? Of course it does. But we try to avoid having to depend on it. (Don't confuse the "hands off my Medicare" folks with us... they're dependents to the core -- big govt bigots.) We don't want to need any more than we want to be needed.

It's perhaps a chilly island, maybe a little mean to some, but it's got a low carbon footprint, and it tries to run in the black.
Why can't you be pragmatic AND moral?

Tyrone Slothrop 06-29-2017 05:19 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 508496)
Does the Moral State take care of us some? Of course it does. But we try to avoid having to depend on it.
Do you claim the home mortgage interest deduction or use the interstates?

Tyrone Slothrop 06-29-2017 05:19 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 508497)
Why can't you be pragmatic AND moral?
Sorry, it's either/or, not a la carte.

Adder 06-29-2017 05:24 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 508496)
It's perhaps a chilly island, maybe a little mean to some, but it's got a low carbon footprint, and it tries to run in the black.
It's absolutely bizarre to argue that low carbon footprint correlates to a lack of empathy.

Of course, it's just as bizarre to apparently believe that morality is synonymous with religion and thus with stereotypes of the religious.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure my bicycles, which are actually my primary modes of transportation, have a lower carbon footprint than your Canyonero.

Adder 06-29-2017 05:28 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 508498)
Do you ... use the interstates?
I drove on an interstate last saturday (entirely within the city of Minneapolis, though) and both Saturday and Sunday two weekends before that!

Tyrone Slothrop 06-29-2017 05:47 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 508500)
It's absolutely bizarre to argue that low carbon footprint correlates to a lack of empathy.

Of course, it's just as bizarre to apparently believe that morality is synonymous with religion and thus with stereotypes of the religious.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure my bicycles, which are actually my primary modes of transportation, have a lower carbon footprint than your Canyonero.
If so, I'm pretty sure that living in California's moderate climes makes me much less empathetic than either of you. Especially now that I don't jet around the world.

http://sallylau.com/images/ClimateBest.jpg

Hank Chinaski 06-29-2017 07:12 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 508502)
If so, I'm pretty sure that living in California's moderate climes makes me much less empathetic than either of you. Especially now that I don't jet around the world.

http://sallylau.com/images/ClimateBest.jpg
When you and Atticus came to see me you were in an hour long traffic jam, which I assume happens to you frequently. You are the problem, city claims nonetheless.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-29-2017 07:33 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 508503)
When you and Atticus came to see me you were in an hour long traffic jam, which I assume happens to you frequently. You are the problem, city claims nonetheless.
Almost never, as I take public transit to work.

sebastian_dangerfield 06-30-2017 10:05 AM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 508497)
Why can't you be pragmatic AND moral?
I was working with your descriptive ("post moral pragmatism").

I don't see any reason one can't be both.

sebastian_dangerfield 06-30-2017 10:13 AM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 508500)
It's absolutely bizarre to argue that low carbon footprint correlates to a lack of empathy.

Of course, it's just as bizarre to apparently believe that morality is synonymous with religion and thus with stereotypes of the religious.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure my bicycles, which are actually my primary modes of transportation, have a lower carbon footprint than your Canyonero.
I didn't say it did. I said those of us who expect little from the state tend to save and conserve more than those who expect a lot.

I think it'd be great to have a huge family. But good schools are expensive. So unlike those who saddle the planet with carbon consuming issue they cannot afford, I have a small family.

Pretty Little Flower 06-30-2017 10:13 AM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 508505)
I was working with your descriptive ("post moral pragmatism").

I don't see any reason one can't be both.
My descriptive? You have an amazing ability to fail to understand that we can still access things you wrote on the internet a few days ago. Like:

"But we're in a post-morality world. Pragmatism, empirical data, and rationality rule among the smarter sets of us."

Adder 06-30-2017 10:19 AM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 508506)
I didn't say it did. I said those of us who expect little from the state tend to save and conserve more than those who expect a lot.
Yeah, I don't think that's even remotely true. In fact, I think those who expect little from the state are especially likely to leverage themselves for McMansions and fancy vehicles while decrying the real moochers who get food stamps.

But I can introduce you to some car-free vegans who make their own clothes if you'd like to see saving and conserving.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 06-30-2017 10:28 AM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 508508)
Yeah, I don't think that's even remotely true. In fact, I think those who expect little from the state are especially likely to leverage themselves for McMansions and fancy vehicles while decrying the real moochers who get food stamps.

But I can introduce you to some car-free vegans who make their own clothes if you'd like to see saving and conserving.
I've generally found that those who say they expect little from the state get quite a lot out of it when you scratch the surface. I was recently getting this line from a bank president I know, who kind of stumbled when I asked how much he had out from the Fed's window and what the rate was.

Pretty much all of the libertarian loan officers Sebby likes to talk about are really wards of the state.

Pretty Little Flower 06-30-2017 10:41 AM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 508508)
Yeah, I don't think that's even remotely true. In fact, I think those who expect little from the state are especially likely to leverage themselves for McMansions and fancy vehicles while decrying the real moochers who get food stamps.

But I can introduce you to some car-free vegans who make their own clothes if you'd like to see saving and conserving.
One of our first babysitters ran with a freegan crowd.

sebastian_dangerfield 06-30-2017 03:30 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 508508)
Yeah, I don't think that's even remotely true. In fact, I think those who expect little from the state are especially likely to leverage themselves for McMansions and fancy vehicles while decrying the real moochers who get food stamps.

But I can introduce you to some car-free vegans who make their own clothes if you'd like to see saving and conserving.
You're describing a form of entitled spendthrift who expects quite a lot from the state. I'm talking about an animal entirely different from the Keep Up with the Joneses crowd.

Pretty Little Flower 06-30-2017 03:32 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 508511)
You're describing a form of entitled spendthrift who expects quite a lot from the state. I'm talking about an animal entirely different from the Keep Up with the Joneses crowd.
I think the name for the animal you are talking about is "unicorn."

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 06-30-2017 05:09 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 508512)
I think the name for the animal you are talking about is "unicorn."
I love unicorns. Are they sparkly ones?

They aren't the ice-cream pooping unicorns, are they?

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 06-30-2017 06:36 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 508510)
One of our first babysitters ran with a freegan crowd.
I just made the mistake of reading a bunch of comments from Trumpsters and Berners posting on the FB page of one of our members.

It is clear that our educational system grossly failed white middle aged men. We seem to have a "lost generation" of almost totally useless twats. What kind of reforms are needed to fix this situation? Is immigration the only answer? Is it possible that white men are simply genetically deficient and there is nothing that can be done here?

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 07-03-2017 10:34 AM
Re: Happy Independent Day!
 
The definition of family time with trumpsters: having a relative who admits to never having heard of lifetime caps then lecture me on how insurance works (with a 7th grader's level of understanding).

Tyrone Slothrop 07-03-2017 02:07 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Scott Turow was right.

Tyrone Slothrop 07-05-2017 12:18 PM
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
This is really well written.

ThurgreedMarshall 07-05-2017 12:30 PM
Bernie 2020
 
If anything about the election of the last two Presidents tells me anything, it's that there is an extreme movement in the opposite direction of whoever just won office (even after we've voted for two terms of the polar opposite).

Bush sucked all the ass and because he was so terrible, we were able to elect a black man named Barack Hussein Obama.

Obama won by huge margins, but the next time around, the country swung all the way off the map to vote for an intellectually challenged moron who coats himself in gold.

Anyone going to prove to me that Bernie isn't going to win in 2020?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...e-sanders-2020

TM

Tyrone Slothrop 07-05-2017 12:48 PM
Re: Bernie 2020
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 508518)
If anything about the election of the last two Presidents tells me anything, it's that there is an extreme movement in the opposite direction of whoever just won office (even after we've voted for two terms of the polar opposite).

Bush sucked all the ass and because he was so terrible, we were able to elect a black man named Barack Hussein Obama.

Obama won by huge margins, but the next time around, the country swung all the way off the map to vote for an intellectually challenged moron who coats himself in gold.

Anyone going to prove to me that Bernie isn't going to win in 2020?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...e-sanders-2020

TM
Talking up Sanders now seems like talking up Dean in 2005. In 2006, there's a reaction to an unpopular President and Democrats take back the House. The 2008 nomination goes not to Dean, who is now old news, but to a new Senator who had been a state legislator in 2004, not on anyone's radar. Sanders is indeed the most prominent Democratic candidate right now, but lots will happen before November 2020.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 07-05-2017 12:49 PM
Re: Bernie 2020
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 508518)
If anything about the election of the last two Presidents tells me anything, it's that there is an extreme movement in the opposite direction of whoever just won office (even after we've voted for two terms of the polar opposite).

Bush sucked all the ass and because he was so terrible, we were able to elect a black man named Barack Hussein Obama.

Obama won by huge margins, but the next time around, the country swung all the way off the map to vote for an intellectually challenged moron who coats himself in gold.

Anyone going to prove to me that Bernie isn't going to win in 2020?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...e-sanders-2020

TM
"Prove"? Why would anyone try.

I think his recent retrenchment on healthcare is a sign he's thinking hard about it. He's basically adopted Hillary's approach as the right "short term" solution and backed away from single payer rhetoric. I think he finally looked hard at health care and figured out if he pushed single payer as a serious candidate, he'd have to answer all the questions on it no one ever bothers to try to address.

Expect to see him furiously reaching out to minority leaders soon.

It's always been hard for even a popular president to win a "third term" and be followed by someone of his own party. But it seems to be getting harder.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 07-05-2017 01:11 PM
Re: The Stupid! The Stupid!
 
So with an international crisis going on over North Korea's ICBM, at a point when a President gathers a team of his best minds and most skilled experts, Trump was tweeting about the possibility of independent military action from Japan, a country without a military, and South Korea, a country that has faced the specter of missile attacks for decades and won't make a move against the North without US backing.

Just how stupid are these people?

Tyrone Slothrop 07-05-2017 01:27 PM
Re: The Stupid! The Stupid!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 508521)
So with an international crisis going on over North Korea's ICBM, at a point when a President gathers a team of his best minds and most skilled experts, Trump was tweeting about the possibility of independent military action from Japan, a country without a military, and South Korea, a country that has faced the specter of missile attacks for decades and won't make a move against the North without US backing.

Just how stupid are these people?
Pretty stupid. OTOH, there seems to be a national consensus not to admit that it's futile to hope that we can stop another country from developing technology that we developed 75 years ago, or that we have few good options.

eta: But the people working for him may not be quite as stupid.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 07-05-2017 01:52 PM
Re: The Stupid! The Stupid!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 508522)
Pretty stupid. OTOH, there seems to be a national consensus not to admit that it's futile to hope that we can stop another country from developing technology that we developed 75 years ago, or that we have few good options.
But but but... Trump said that we were done with "strategic patience" and that he'd stop North Korea ....

Tyrone Slothrop 07-05-2017 02:29 PM
Re: The Stupid! The Stupid!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 508523)
But but but... Trump said that we were done with "strategic patience" and that he'd stop North Korea ....
Nothing has changed.

ThurgreedMarshall 07-05-2017 02:42 PM
Re: Bernie 2020
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 508519)
Talking up Sanders now seems like talking up Dean in 2005. In 2006, there's a reaction to an unpopular President and Democrats take back the House. The 2008 nomination goes not to Dean, who is now old news, but to a new Senator who had been a state legislator in 2004, not on anyone's radar. Sanders is indeed the most prominent Democratic candidate right now, but lots will happen before November 2020.
Yes. Lots can happen. That's deep.

I think Sanders is very different than Obama. Obama's rise was because he was so charismatic and different. While Bernie may not have the charisma, he is certainly different. And he's got a lot of fanatics who are going to push very hard for him.

I think it's Biden's party until someone proves it isn't. I love Schiff, but he may be a little too stiff to move the needle. Although, after 4 years of fucking Trump, that may be exactly what everyone is looking for.

TM

Hank Chinaski 07-05-2017 02:43 PM
Re: Bernie 2020
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 508519)
Talking up Sanders now seems like talking up Dean in 2005. In 2006, there's a reaction to an unpopular President and Democrats take back the House. The 2008 nomination goes not to Dean, who is now old news, but to a new Senator who had been a state legislator in 2004, not on anyone's radar. Sanders is indeed the most prominent Democratic candidate right now, but lots will happen before November 2020.
Doesn't he have a ton of hate/baggage in the party due to having a hand in wrecking Hil?

Tyrone Slothrop 07-05-2017 03:06 PM
Re: Bernie 2020
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 508525)
Yes. Lots can happen. That's deep.

I think Sanders is very different than Obama. Obama's rise was because he was so charismatic and different. While Bernie may not have the charisma, he is certainly different. And he's got a lot of fanatics who are going to push very hard for him.
Very different. I'm not sure Sanders changes the game much. Are many people going to vote for Sanders who didn't vote for Hillary?

Quote:
I think it's Biden's party until someone proves it isn't. I love Schiff, but he may be a little too stiff to move the needle. Although, after 4 years of fucking Trump, that may be exactly what everyone is looking for.
I would look for a governor, but don't have anyone particularly in mind.

Tyrone Slothrop 07-05-2017 03:08 PM
Re: Bernie 2020
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 508526)
Doesn't he have a ton of hate/baggage in the party due to having a hand in wrecking Hil?
Not that I see. He didn't particularly wreck her. IMHO, her problem was that everyone got out of her way in the Democratic primary, and allowed her to coast instead of upping her game. He didn't go after her the way any Republican would have.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 07-05-2017 03:14 PM
Re: Bernie 2020
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 508526)
Doesn't he have a ton of hate/baggage in the party due to having a hand in wrecking Hil?
Yeah, he is going to particularly have a hard time winning over women activists in the party. I'd tell him to leave it alone right now for a year and focus on winning over others, including especially minorities. And let's face it, John Lewis is used to having white politicians hate him one day and love him the next, it won't be the first time someone realized late in the game that they were forgetting about him and his constituency.

At some point he has to admit he was a schmuck and have a Damascene moment to win a lot of people over.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 07-05-2017 03:16 PM
Re: Bernie 2020
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 508527)
Very different. I'm not sure Sanders changes the game much. Are many people going to vote for Sanders who didn't vote for Hillary?



I would look for a governor, but don't have anyone particularly in mind.
My short list of emerging contenders has as many names in the center - Tester, Kander, Gillibrand - than on the left - Warren, Harris, Sanders. I think there is a powerful case to be made that the best candidate in the abstract for the dems would be an African-American Women. But Dems don't pick candidates in the abstract.


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