Delay = RINO
 

I am relying on the fact that in 1940 part of his platform was that he would do everything in his power to keep the United State out of the war, while he was doing all sorts of stuff to provoke Germany. He had US destroyers protecting british and US shipping halfway across the atlantic. They had orders to shoot anything that shot a them. Someone who was trying to avoid getting us in a war would have have simply let british shipping be on its own in international waters.

The Lend lease was purely designed to help Britain and was not an act of a neutral. Same with the rest of the Atlantic charter.

Roosevelt was not doing everything he could to keep us out of the war and was lying when he said he was. I am glad that he did. I don't know anything about that PBS special, and there may be some argments about what Roosevelt did and didn't do, but I have never heard anyone (except Ty) state that Roosevelt did not lie when he said that he would do everything he could to keep us out of the war.

For RT.
 

I thought it was funny, but I really want to know why they have not indicted him yet. If the indicted him it would make my life a lot easier.

Just compensation
 

Sorry. I screwed up. I should have included you when I said Ty was the only true Democrat on the board (or at least a true compassionate Democrat).

Random Question
 

Same reason Andrew Jackson killed the Bank of the United States. These banks are in the control of the evil capitalist exploiters on Wall Street who manipulate the system at our expense to line their pockets.

Random Question
 

My two favorite political bumbers stickers are:

U.S. out of North America

Nuke the gay whales for Christ.

I vote for Doubloons. I also like Gilders, which is available now that the Dutch have adopted the Euro.

I think you missed someone.....
 

I am trying to not take this personally but how come I got left out here? I thought I was let in to the Hank and Penske club. Am I still considered an acolyte? What gives? Not enough posts? Not enough pictures?

I think you missed someone.....
 

Substance.

Feel free not to read my posts. I think we're just interested in different things.

Too late for this. You started a war. I'm like Kim il cook or whatever- paranoid but armed. Better change your sock and be more careful next time.

Delay = RINO
 

I agree with you completely on the substance: I think FDR intentionally misled Americans to play to popular opinion.

I just disagree that this is common knowledge; I think that the position only gained wide acceptance in the 80s and has come under considerable attack. So I don't mind a request for more information or someone challenging what I view as accepted.

The interesting thing is how the idea of misleading the public is perceived: some have criticized FDR for not being enough of a leader and confronting the public, others for not following what the public thought. In hindsight, few disagree that war was inevitable, or that the American people were not fully prepared to fight until attacked.

Do you have a favorite captain?

I think you missed someone.....
 

I have had plenty of postings without substance. What about my common knowledge posts? There was no substance in there.....

Yes: Penske's neighbor who is retired from the Israeli Defense Forces as a Captain is my favorite. Least favorite is Captain Blye. Why not just let the crew party?

You don't raise any emotion but tedium, so you're not ranked.: sorry:bye: :bye:

Delay = RINO
 

I think once the facts came out it was clear Roosevelt lied. I pointed out that I was glad that he did lied. If he had not he would not have been reelected and he would have been replaced by an isolationist who would have really tried to keep us out of the war. His replacement might have cancelled the Atlantic Charter and the oil Embargo against Japan and we my have never stepped in which would have been a disaster for the world.

The subject came up because people were accusing Bush of lying about the WMDs. I was pointing out that I didn't think Bush lied about the WMDs and even if he did it was no big deal because Presidents lie all the time. I then pointed out that FDR lied (and misled the public) about WWII and liberals don't seem to have a problem with that now.

Ty refused to accept that argument because he refused to believe FDR lied. Even after Penske cited a speech in which made it clear FDR was lying he then wanted another cite. I think he also questoned whether or not the Lend Lease deal was really a sweet heart deal for England. Or whether we escorted their destroyers half way across the Atlantic.

Obviously, the idea of Roosevelt lying did not appeal to him.

Delay = RINO
 

You may have heard me say this, but it's not what I said. This routine of yours is getting tiresome.

No, I asked for more of the speech from which Penske -- or whomever he got it from -- found the single sentence that he quoted. I wondered what the context was, and suspected -- correctly, it would seem -- that you and Penske are trafficking in someone else's arguments about FDR. I don't know much about the 1940 campaign myself.

I am perfectly willing to believe that FDR misled people, just as I am willing to believe that New Orleans officials connived with the North Koreans to deploy school buses as submarines.

There is some irony in having to point this out within a day of your refusing to accept that the White House is inflating budgetary projections for political purposes.

Delay = RINO
 

And I can only help back to the start of the internet. Al Gore wasn't even born in 1940.

Delay = RINO
 

Ah, now I understand the context.

Is this the famous how-ever-many-words in the state-of-the-union speech issue?

I'm in the who-cares-if-he-lied-as-long-as-the-outcome-was-right camp. Of course, I think we'll know whether the outcome was right in about 10-20 years.

This is the same place I come out on the FDR lied front. He has been fully vindicated.

Delay = RINO
 

One of the drawbacks of having the Presidency and Congress controlled by the same party is that we no longer longer get to see duelling ridiculous budget claims on a regular basis. It used to be easy to just add them together and divide by two.

But isn't this the product of policy wonks who believe in their own snake-oil? When an economist of a given persuassion scores revenue based on policy changes, they are always convinced that their policy changes will achieve all they are intended to without any unintended consequences.

In other words, of course they are inflated, but don't they inevitably end up inflated without anyone needing to do it intentionally?

Delay = RINO
 

Good. Another poster
Who sees clearly that,
whatever persuasion,
A rat's still a rat.

So congrats. You now
qualify, in the main,
as one of few posters
who writes like he's sane.

Delay = RINO
 

Estimates of the deficit are inflated, not estimates of revenue.

That way, when the actual numbers are released, the White House can say: Good news! It's much better than was predicted!

This is exactly what they've been doing.

Delay = RINO
 

Yes, that would be intentional and not just the normal snake oil. But I'm not sure I understand the basis for the claim -- are there other economists who can ferret out how they're dummying up numbers?

Delay = RINO
 

Wow. I'm moved. I just wish I could do verse with this ease. I really enjoy these.

Delay = RINO
 

Isn't consumer confidence the most important thing for a healthy economy? So since most people believe it, isn't it true?

I've been around here for a pretty long time, and I still don't buy this philosophy. I'm sorry you feel that way, because it clearly cuts down on the number of quality posts you provide (admitedly using a different standard here than you use).

Oh, I agree that the directly partisan political GOP-DEM knife-fights never seem to convince anyone. However, there is a lot more to this board (especially during a non-election season).

Every so often I learn something new, and there are many issues discussed here that I don't think much about in my everyday life (e.g. almost anything Burger posts on), so the discussions here do sometimes help shape my views.

The Captain hasn't been around long enough to see the range of your ouevre, Hank -- or to understand that every so often you will unexpectedly send out a thoughtful substantive post which cuts through the cloud of B.S. Most of your posts, though, are efforts at being simultaneously cryptic and funny -- which is tough to do and inevitably results in uneven quality.

Please don't try to discourage the Captain from posting on 18th and 19th century legal theory, or constitutional history, or from asking reasonable questions -- that is good shit. Its part of what distinguishes this Board from the standard AOL/Yahoo chat board and makes it worth spending time here.

S_A_M

P.S. I must have been away when Penske was one of the most substantive posters on the Boards (or it must have been a _long_ time ago). I am pleased that he's moved in that direction and cut down on the lunatic sockery in the past few months. Again, who knew he could have an interesting perspective? All praise to the babyjesuschrist superstar!

Delay = RINO
 

Yes, and I have posted links.

Some conservatives would just credit the White House for its remarkable political acumen and excellent spinning technique. Not sure why Spanky is fighting this one tooth and nail.

Delay = RINO
 

You conservatives with your moral relativism.

If one goes back to Infirm, and I think you were there, the Politics board was much more news topic driven then this place has become. It was also a ton more fun. Maybe the fun was driven by BT, and riffing off him.

What I recall was about once every three months Burger and Taxwonk would get into these long tax debates. Other than that no outside reading was required to keep up or contribute (to the extent most of us "contribute"). I could scroll through the tax debates (no offense to B or T, I just don't remember enough to kid myself I'd understand).

Here the fun is almost all gone. Perhaps that was shifter turning more serious.

And now instead of the threads every three months that need to be scrolled through, it is almost all of it. And I think that leads to the bases for arguments being "here's some blog" or "everyone but Ty understands this." No one has read the shit required to post intellignetly on these topics- in a sense Penske and I are the more serious posters for not trying to post seriously on topics where we know we haven't read what's required.

And posters here can pick how they want the board to be, I don't give a shit- Captain can go on on at length and all I would do is scroll. But when someone attacks me, then I go back. That is what I like best.

Delay = RINO
 

1) Does this approach, if true, have the intended effect? People hear the first prediction--
massive deficits, adn that has a cost. Does the "new" number really outweigh the old? People are pretty bored of this, and touting a "less massive" deficit doesn't exactly win points.

2) Every admin. has always used Rosy Scenario as the leading lady in its projections. How is this different from anything anyone has done in the last 40 years.

3) CBO is just as political, if not more so, than OMB. While averging the two figures has some value, CBO is generally even less useful.

I don't think I ever posted on Politics on infirm. I concede debates with wonk over tax here, but the length reflected their value, both intellectual and political.

somebody did, and it was someone from DC, but maybe it was someone who didn't make the jump. And remember i was not criticizing.

Delay = RINO
 

The fact that FDR lied about his intentions about the war was something you did not want to accept because it delegitimizes Bush's supposed lies that led us into the gulf war. Although you agreed that Bush probably did not lie you did think his using faulty evidence makes him culpable. Obviously FDR directly lying makes Bush's alleged activities seem less heinous.



Thick with irony. We know FDR lied about his intentions prior to WWII. He said he would do everything to keep us out of the war and in fact did not. We can compare what he said with what he did. i.e. repeated assertions that there would be no war in an FDR administration - while doing lend lease, military escorts, sharing intelligence, lend lease, the Atlantic Charter etc.

Bush inflating budgetary projections for political purposes is just supposition. There is no conclusive proof that he did. It is possible. But again projections on future deficits and surpluses are never accurate. Until there is some direct evidence and not supposition no conclusions can be drawn.

So it is absurd to ask me to admit that Bush intentionally did it when you have no direct evidence. Is there some direct evidence I am unaware of? It is possible, but who knows.

Delay = RINO
 

I agree with you here. FDR did the right thing. The jury is still out on Bush.

Delay = RINO
 

Uh-oh.

I'm certainly no economist, nor do I play one on TV, but even I expect this to rebound next month, as everyone realizes that we won't be paying for $5 gas after Katrina/Rita. But I wonder if it says something about the volatility of consumer confidence, and perhaps that everyone is nervously keeping an eye on the prices displayed at the local Union76. What will happen once the fall/winter home heating bills start coming in?

Delay = RINO
 

Normally the administration always predicts that the deficits won't be as bad as they are. For obvious reasons. The Reagan and Bush administration constantly underpredicted the deficits. In the Clinton administration they constantly underpredicted the reduction in the deficit and the surplus because the multiplier effect of the growing economy caught everyone off guard. I don't Clinton was intentionally underpredicting the good neaw. Tys assertion is that Bush is using reverse psychology. He intentionally overestimated the budget deficit (even though it gave fuel to his opponents when he came out with huge numbers) in the end it helped him because when the actual numbers came in they were below people's expectations so it deflated the shock. There is some circumstantial evidence that this happened. However, nothing conclusive. But in any event, Ty thinks the current evidence (which is really just supposition) is strong enough so I should accept that it really happened.

Egads
 

I didn't actually get on any of the highways, thanks to some preplanning a few months ago, but it was really, really bad getting out of Houston on Wednesday night/Thursday morning.

But apparently better than most places:
I heard on the radio on Monday morning that Bush was suggesting that the Pentagon take over these sorts of things. The thought horrifies me. It seems that the Administration either wants total military control or none at all on the Federal level and working with local government and businesses isn't as much of an option.

ETA: I kinda agree with this guy: Seems that Wal-Mart's plan worked beautifully during Katrina, when it wasn't interfered with by FEMA. There are a lot of experts on logistics out there that don't specialize in warfare. It seems to me that we should look to them first and let the Pentagon worry about defending the country from enemies.

Egads
 

What was Wal-Mart's plan?

ETA http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05255/570139.stm actually more informative vis-a-vis the planning part of it than the WaPo/Houston Chron article.

Egads
 

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/image...51003/frtn.jpg

To Kick Ass and Take Names.

You want 8 billion bottles of water and 2 billion Slim Jims into an area in 24 hours, you don't call FEMA. You call Home Depot and Walmart.

Egads
 

I've been wondering about this. I could imagine you could contract to a consulting firm for an evacuation plan, and I even imagine it happens, but when the shit hits the fan, in the specific case of running an evacuation, how is business going to outperform the government? Are you going to pay more attention to a WalMart greeter waving a flashlight than a state trooper?

Egads
 

Wal-Mart, at the beginning of hurricane season, started stockpiling water all over the Gulf Coast in containers at their distribution centers. All they needed was the truck to back up to the containers and they were ready to deliver water to hurricane affected areas. Their communications system never went down, so they could figure out where water was needed most, and they could direct the trucks to the right places. They were on the road by the Thursday after Katrina, and the only problems that they had were when FEMA wouldn't let them through at some points. Additionally, their distribution network is sophisticated enough that they were able to get several thousand cots from Canada in a matter of days.