Wilson lied?
 

How much did you get paid for that?

Wilson lied?
 

that's the punch line. Her dad paid $60,000 tution for her to have the opportunity.

Wilson lied?
 

I think it was the complete absence of WMDs despite the Bush Admin's repeated statements that no sane person could deny that there were WMDs.

Wilson lied?
 

That has to be the most amazing post in the history of this board.

Wilson lied?
 

I don't mean this a snipe, but a simple question. Why is it a lie for Bush, when Clinton said the same thing. Based upon what they knew the US Government was convinced Sadaam had WMD, in 1991, 1995, 1998 and 2003. Clinton was convinced at the time he was privy- why should Bush not be convinced. Why is only the second the lie.

One could make the argument that the mistake in the late-90's was the worse mistake. The mistake that Sadaam still had them then created the assumption that the problem could only be worse now. So if it was a lie in 2003, what was it 1998?

Wilson lied?
 

Sorry, no.
"JFK was the only skipper to have his PT boat sunk in WWII" is still the top. It led to the demise of a very long-lived sock.

Wilson lied?
 

Once again, Clinton built the military that Bush used so effectively in Afghanistan. Bush was not responsible for development of a single system, the procurement of a single weapon, or the training of a single soldier. All of the weapons were the product of the Clinton Admin's efforts, and the focused effort at building needed military strength (rather than bankrupting the country to re, then de, commission battleships and the other white elephant project of which Reagan was so fond).

As for foreign policy, Clinton glows in comparison to Bush -- who has turned all of our allies against us (except, of course, our glorious Coalition of Tonga and Costa Rica) while pissing away all of the worldwide goodwill and sympathy that we had after 9/11.


RIght. That's what SAM is saying about how the Republiban damaged Clinton's foreign policy efforts. Although Clinton still managed to prevent genocide in Kosovo without wasting American lives or losing American allies.


Fuck you, you McCarthyite piece of shit.

Wilson lied?
 

As I have posted here before, in direct response to you as I recall, air strikes launched by Clinton (Operation Something Or Other) are now credited with destroying Hussein's programs. Also, the sanctions were working. As to the facts on the ground, the answer start there.

For our end, pretending that Clinton and Bush took the same view of what was happening in Iraq is a cute debating trick, but nothing more. Obviously, the intelligence was ambiguous. Clinton felt that containment was appropriate, based on what he was told. Bush decided earlier on, it would appear, that he was not going to follow the same policy, and then -- as Hoagland helpfully explained back in 2002 -- the CIA eventually followed his lead.

Wilson lied?
 

He went to war against Iraq because they had WMDs and they were working with Al Qaeda, when they did not have WMDs and were not working with Al Qaeda.

I guess "whoops" is a good enough excuse for you. I wonder how that would work as a eulogy for the dead American soldiers.

Wilson lied?
 

There is a higher standard when the statement is being made as justification for war.

Josh on Sandy
 

In sum:

1) What the F was Sandy thinking.
2) Nevertheless, the timing of this story is more GOP dirty tricks.

link


eta: Ty, you should be so proud. I read this on TPM long before Daily Dish linked to it.

Josh on Sandy
 

For the reasons Burger just mentioned, I have to believe that these regulations are breached all the time, so when you read about them in the paper, you have to ask yourself, why was that leaked? Maybe it wasn't partisan -- maybe someone had a score to settle with Sandy Berger.

And Slave, you are the man.

Wilson lied?
 

Hussein got rid of them, either destroyed or hid. Airstrikes can't get rid os WMD stockpiles tY. There'd be a mess.

Whatever actually happened in 98 Clinton and the Dems talked a good story about how he had them. Did they have intel that the bombings destroyed it all? My only poitn is that is Clinton thought he had them, why shoud Bush look at the intell differently. Are you saying Clinton didn't really think he had them? when he said that he thought so, was he lying?

Wilson lied?
 

I don't know what points you're trying to score here, Hank. It was Clinton. Nobody ever claimed that he was honest.

This Looks Bad
 

You mean Filegate? When Craig Livingstone - the former bar bouncer turned Clinton Security Chief - was caught with over 900 sensitive FBI files on prominent Republicans?

Yes, I realize, all these scandals get fuzzy because as we know, it was all about sex.

Josh on Sandy
 

With a line like "he had taken...documents he reviewed at the National Archives by sticking them in his... pants." you have to wonder if the axe-grinder is the AP writer. Sheesh.

Wilson lied?
 

I need to work on my spelling.

Yglesias responds to the clubbian point about Wilson's continuing importance, or lack thereof:

Wilson lied?
 

But Bush did look at the intel differently -- he looked at it as justifiying an invasion on the grounds that bombing and sanctions had failed to remove an imminent threat.

And Clinton did not offer the claims that Bush offered. No statement that Iraq could deploy WMD in 45 minutes. No statements about mushroom clouds. No Trailers of Mass Destruction.

Wilson lied?
 

as to para. 1
Yes. different evaluation of what it meant, but that's not a lie.
as to para. 2
So when you say "Bush lied" you mean to limit to those specific statements, with the general "he has WMD" not being included?

Maybe a seperate thread for Wilson?

Wilson lied?
 

When I say Bush lied, I'm sticking to specific statements. I would hesitate to point to the general "he has WMD" line, except when (for example) I know that the general in charge of Central Command who was planning the invasion of the country told Bush a day or two before that they've been looking for WMD for ten years and haven't found a single one. That doesn't look so good.

It doesn't reflect all that well on Clinton, either, but I don't know what Clinton was being told. Since Clinton wasn't interested in invading Iraq, I don't suspect he had ulterior motive to twist the truth. Or "inflate" things, as Hoagland put it.

I'll stop until someone says something new. He just doesn't matter, which was Yglesias's point.

Sorry, one more:

• Though the authors of the Senate report chose not to include this point, Plame's bosses at the CIA have always said they came up with the idea to send him, not her. Indeed, only yesterday a senior intelligence official confirmed to me that, according to her bosses, Plame "did not initiate" the idea of sending Wilson on the Niger mission. Her bosses came up with the idea, the official explained, and then she agreed to ask him if he'd be willing to undertake it.

Josh Marshall

Josh on Sandy
 

Oops. I didn't read the post Slave linked to until now:

Also note the refutation there at the end of club's epistemology.

1) This is contradicted by the wording of Plame's own memo in the file, and

2) Even if Marshall's assertions here are true - and this is not established - this still runs to counter to all of Wilson's bleating that she had "absolutely nothing" to do with his trip.

Classy
 

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...bumper_sticker

(GOP bumper sticker: "Kerry is bin Laden's Man. Bush is Mine.")

eta: this appears to be a popular them among the GOP. http://www.authenticgop.com/

Classy
 

Do we really want to delve into the stupidity of bumper stickers? In the last week, I've seen the following:

Bush Lied
Fuck Bush
Fuck Cheney
Read my Pussy Lips, No More Bush
Nuke the GOP
I'm with Stupid -> [Bush photo]

Assuming that you are talking about the quotation from Plame's memo (underlined below) on page 39 of the report, not so:

• Some CPD officials could not recall how the office decided to contact the former ambassador, however, interviews and documents provided to the Committee indicate that his wife, a CPD employee, suggested his name for the trip. The CPD reports officer told Committee staff that the former ambassador's wife "offered up his name" and a memorandum to the Deputy Chief of the CPD on February 12, 2002, from the former ambassador's wife says, "my husband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." This was just one day before CPD sent a cable [REDACTED] requesting concurrence with CPD's idea to send the former ambassador to Niger and requesting any additional information from the foreign government service on their uranium reports. The former ambassador's wife told Committee staff that when CPD decided it would like to send the former ambassador to Niger, she approached her husband on behalf of the CIA and told him "there's this crazy report" on a purported deal for Niger to sell uranium to Iraq.

2) True. I don't remember said bleating, but I take your word for it.

Classy
 

Displayed at party headquarters? So soon after the shameful Cleland episode? Ah, fuck it. It's politics. Whatever works, right?

Classy
 

Party headquarters... in Louisville KY.

Since I've never actually stepped inside of a small-city Democratic party headquarters, I'll just have to take your word that I won't find any silly Bush-bashing bumper stickers therein.

Wilson lied?
 

When I say "Bush lied," I mean that Bush presented to the American people a strong case for going to war, on the basis that Iraq posed an imminent threat, had active WMD programs and stockpiles of WMD, and was linked to al Qaeda and 9/11 (e.g., the comment that when you talk about terrorism, there is no difference between Iraq and al Qaeda), and that the evidence of this was conclusive so that no reasonable person could doubt it, and that there was no material contradictory evidence.

Do I know whether Bush had information in his head that showed the specific statements I've identified to be false? No. But one after another, the statements have proven to be untrue. No stockpiles. No 45 minute (or 45 day) availability. No Trailers of Mass Destruction. Even the half-dozen discarded shells prove not to have contained chemicals. Does this not give you the impression that Bush decided on the war and sought to build his case for it, rather than that he looked at war only as a last resort and only if there was consistent and reliable information to demonstrate that it was necessary?

Bush built his case for war like a marginally ethical trial lawyer building his case to a jury -- lots of hyperbole, lots of ellipsis, lots of altering statements to make them literally true while knowing that their implication was suspect (e.g., changing "Iraq sought uranium from Niger" to "the Brits believe that Iraq sought uranium from Niger" and leaving out the part about how we had plenty of reason to believe that wasn't true). That's not the level of honesty and disclosure that should be expected of a leader taking his country to war.

I've lost the point on this one. Did Plame suggest that her husband might be qualified for the trip, or was Plame the person, or one of the people, actually responsible for selecting him?

Wilson lied?
 

Don't forget that we're down from 400,000 mass graves to 5,000.

Slave and some conservatives say the former. The CIA, per Marshall, says Plame was involved after the CIA had the idea. Per Slave, Wilson says she wasn't involved at all, which would certainly appear to be false.

Classy
 

My personal fav is the "Kuck Ferry" bumper sticker.

Wilson lied?
 

Remember when Bilmore and Mystery Guest were breathlessly repeating the GOP talking points that Saddam was worse than Hitler?

I wonder if the people who liberated Germany took 16 months to find Auschwitz.

All your base are belong to us, Part II.
 

Did we ever get an answer to the question of whether we're building permanent military bases (like Dhahran, Jeddah, and Riyadh in S.A.) in Iraq?

Wilson lied?
 

We can all hope, then, that the numbers are overestimated and less people were butchered by this regime*

However, what should still be of the utmost concern to everyone is that Human Rights Watch - hardly a friend of this Administation - stands by its estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been 'disappeared' by the Iraqi government over the past two decades.

* Or as BigFatMike liked to call it, the "Sovereign Nation of Iraq" [prompt kite photo]

Wilson lied?
 

Do you mean fewer, or that Less was butchered?