Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

The deal is not on offer; it is in my head. Think of it as Liars Poker.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Thanks, RT! (And you don't get enough of that.) We all appreciate you maintaining this board and community.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I don't understand why the two things pop up in your head simultaneously or in opposition to each other at all. Elizabeth Warren is a professor and a politician who actually cares about the little guy (whether you like her politics or not, that point is not debatable). I don't give a shit if she has Native American blood or not. If you think she lied about it to burnish her liberal bonafides, I don't know how it benefits her at all. Or with whom.

Trump is a liar who's never told the truth in his life and who is clearly hiding his taxes because of the dirt that would come out if he produced them.

Makes no sense.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I don't dispute the fact that Elizabeth Warren is so far a superior being to Donald Trump that it is somewhat unfair to lump them in the same basket. Nonetheless, there is a symmetry here.

Warren asserts a fact. The fact is that she asserts a particular heritage.The veracity of that fact is, 100%, within her power to demonstrate and reveal. She has declined to do so. Under the evidence case of The Chimney Sweeper's Jewel, Armory v Delamirie [1722] EWHC J94, (1722) 1 Strange 505, evidence under the exclusive power of a party, which goes unproduced, is construed against that party. Until she produces the evidence, she cannot claim that heritage.

If Warren is utterly convinced of her Indian heritage, she should proffer the proposal I made, and back it up.

Trump asserts a number of facts. Those facts are that his tax returns are in order, that he has no Russian investment complications, and that he has paid his taxes. The veracity of those facts are, 100%, within his power to demonstrate and reveal. He has declined to do so. For the reasons stated above, the evidence must be construed against him, and until he does I consider him a tax cheat.

If Trump is utterly convinced of the propriety of his tax returns, he should proffer the proposal I made, and back it up.


I part company with you about whether Ms. Warren's status as an Indian is irrelevant. I do believe she used that to her advantage early in her career. If she is not what she claims to be should anger (1) everyone and (2) particularly, people who have been discriminated against because of that heritage. In my view she doesn't get a pass on that. It is a form of, but worse than, resume padding. If she has lied about this you can overlook it if you wish. Many good people have done worse. Sure.

I suspect you would agree that one should not, for example, claim entitlement to a scholarship set aside for African -Americans, or veterans, or the descendants of Holocaust victims, unless your heritage gives you the basis to claim the scholarship. She is not quite that blatant, but she's on the spectrum, and I don't care for it.

Mueller takes rook
 

"Special counsel Robert Mueller has indicted 13 Russian nationals and three Russian entities for allegedly meddling in the 2016 presidential election, charging them with conspiracy to defraud the United States, the Department of Justice has announced.

In addition, three defendants were charged with conspiracy to commit wire fraud and bank fraud, and five defendants with aggravated identity theft.
Mueller has been investigating Russian interference in the 2016 election as well as any connections between Russia and Trump campaign associates."

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/polit...nce/index.html

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I think this is a load of crap, and no one would be questioning her heritage or suggesting she offer proof if she said she had a Scottish or Polish grandfather.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Uh...this isn't a court proceeding. She doesn't have to prove a fucking thing to you. If you came up to me and said, "You're not black," it's not on me to prove that I am. Fuck outta here with that.

Wait a second. I'm no longer sure what you're claiming she did, because the analogy you draw in that last paragraph (especially the Holocaust one) is intentionally misleading and straying into the offensive.

From Snopes:

The legitimacy of Warren’s claims to Native American heritage has certainly been challenged by many critics, and it is true that while Warren was at U. Penn. Law School she put herself on the “Minority Law Teacher” list as Native American) in the faculty directory of the Association of American Law Schools, and that Harvard Law School at one time promoted Warren as a Native American faculty member. But specific evidence that she gained her position at Harvard (at least in part) through her claims to Native American heritage is lacking. Warren denied applying for special consideration as a person of Native American heritage during her career, and when the matter was examined in 2012 in response to Brown’s claims, people with whom Warren had worked similarly denied her ancestral background’s factoring into the professional opportunities afforded her:

The former chairman of the American Association of Law Schools, David Bernstein, told the Herald that the group’s directory once served as a tip sheet for administrators. “In the old days before the Internet, you’d pull out the AALS directory and look up people,” he said. “There are schools that, if they were looking for a minority faculty member, would go to that list and might say, ‘I didn’t know Elizabeth Warren was a minority.' ”Warren said she didn’t know Harvard had used her heritage as proof of diversity until reading about the issue in the news, according to a Herald report. She also denied that she ever tried to gain a professional advantage through her lineage.

Warren responded she was recruited for the positions and did not “apply” for them; and for the most part, her record did not indicate any identification as part of a minority group:

The Globe obtained a portion of Warren’s application to Rutgers, which asks if prospective students want to apply for admission under the school’s Program for Minority Group Students. Warren answered “no.” For her employment documents at the University of Texas, Warren indicated that she was “white.”

But Penn’s 2005 Minority Equity Report identified her as the recipient of a 1994 faculty award, listing her name in bold to signify that she was a minority.

The Herald has twice quoted Charles Fried, the head of the Harvard appointing committee that recommended Warren for her position in 1995, saying that the Democratic candidate’s heritage didn’t come up during the course of her hiring. “It simply played no role in the appointments process,” he said. “It was not mentioned and I didn’t mention it to the faculty.”

The Herald later quoted Fried, a former U.S. Solicitor General under President Ronald Reagan, saying, “I can state categorically that the subject of her Native American ancestry never once was mentioned.”

https://www.snopes.com/politics/politicians/warren.asp
_____________

So what's your issue? If anything, it sounds to me like her family either had Native American blood or she was told it did. If you're going to imply that she completely made up a connection to gain an advantage to get a job at Harvard, take your own medicine and prove it. But this shit about her having to take a DNA test to satisfy people who don't believe her is fucking ridiculous. Were you on the fence as to Obama until he actually produced his long form birth certificate too?

Non-issue. Political garbage.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

And I'm not giving my DNA away to any shady company to substantiate my German and Irish ancestry either.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You've cited that case before. I have to remember it.

LessinChicago

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

First, you are a WAY better typist than me. It would take me an hour to do that.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Does she HAVE to take a DNS test? No. But the quotes about her silent acquiescence began with her claiming....somewhere... an American Indian heritage. I don't necessarily agree that she either is, or believed, she was Indian. The Obama birther issue did real damage. Did I believe it, absolutely not. Did it matter? Yes. Should he have put it to bed earlier? Yes.

And as far as this being political garbage...of course it is, but the issue in the public eye is whether she lied or not.

Fine. I withdraw the descendant of the Holocaust victim example.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Have a mixed heritage is as American as apple pie. Moreso. You don't "necessarily agree" what her heritage is? Who asked you? Why does your opinion about her heritage matter? Do you think she's lying?

I don't even know what this first sentence means, or why you think the question of where, physically, Obama was born has anything to do with the question of what heritage Warren has. The common thread here is that you seem to assume that people who aren't white may be lying and need to presume otherwise. Are there any people who say they're white whom you assume to be lying about it, or is this just a burden of being an ethnic minority?

Not the public I know. A lot of people have raised questions about Obama and Warren in palpable bad faith. The issue in the public eye is why people (like you) keep giving credence to what you call political garbage.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Mostly cut and paste.

Clearly.

So fucking what?

I'm not sure why anyone (especially her) should care what you believe. Your basis for disbelief so far is based on the color of her skin (which is nowhere in the realm of dispositive) and the fact that she hasn't produced a DNA test to satisfy you. I don't know how you read that without feeling ridiculous.

Wrong. The fact that he felt he had to address it shows just how racist this country is. It is a completely made-up, bullshit claim that racist assholes grabbed onto like a life raft. He was never able to put it to bed, because the only people who believed it will never be satisfied with whatever evidence he produces. As a matter of fact, Birther #1 immediately demanded his school records, because it was never about anything but racism. And that asshole is currently the President of the United States.

Nah. I guess maybe in your eyes it is. But I just produced a respected website that said she never benefited from it and you're not satisfied. I imagine there are many of you out there who won't be satisfied even if she produces DNA evidence, because it's not really about whether she does or doesn't have Native American background. Is it? It's about hating and discrediting her. And this bullshit gives people something to seize on.

Thanks!

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Kerry was slandered by the right. Obama was slandered by the right. Lies do damage. That is my only point here. If you can definitively put an end to those lies with a fact based response, I believe it is wise to do so.

Trump's constant drumbeat of lies has a huge potential to defeat him and his enablers. Is there a false equivalence between Trump's lies and whatever is the truth about Warren? Yes. If she can put the allegation that she asserted minority status to gain a career advantage to rest, she'd be better off.

In terms of running against Trump: The Democrats don't need to resort to fake news. You don't even have to mention his name. Picture a billboard campaign. Black background, White letters. Each one of these on a separate billboard:

He lies to his wife. He lies to you.

...and Mexico will pay for it.

He lied to the Army, and some poor kid went to Vietnam in his place.

Biggest Inauguration Crowd Ever.

There are some good Neo Nazis.

I used the law brilliantly... to stiff my creditors.

It was only locker room talk.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

When the right invents stories in bad-faith to do political damage, trying to refute them with evidence will not make them go away. Obama was born in Hawaii, period. He is not a Muslim, period. Those stories were refuted many time with fact-based responses and yet they continue, because the people raising them are not engaged in a good-faith effort to get at the truth. Pretending that they are just enables them. You are illustrating this right now, by continuing to post about the allegations about Warren as if they haven't been examined and disproven. TM posted as much, but you just commented on his typing speed and went back to questioning how she has handled the "controversy."

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You keep saying this. But there is absolutely no evidence that she gained a career advantage. In fact, the claims are so specious that you originally asserted that she did it to get a scholarship, not a job.

If it is a fact that she has Native American heritage, it is a fucking crime that Scott Walker implied that (i) she lied about it and (ii) she lied about it to gain a career advantage. Politically, it's the perfect claim because it plays on all those white fears that minorities are getting all these advantages that are denied to them. Ask yourself why the claim sticks with you so much. But do it in private.

In short, anyone can make up whatever they like about me. I shouldn't have to prove that whatever they made up is completely false. And since she defeated Walker without having to do so, I think that's a good thing. The fact that you keep asserting that the liar-in-chief's constant racist harassment needs to be addressed by her is somewhat disturbing. He's the only asshole who is making this an issue. And he's an established, inveterate liar and bully. That should be enough.

TM