Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Adrift?

You mean "fucked".

And fucking the rest of us.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Oddly, Scripture doesn't say anything about the role of baked goods in a wedding. To hear Colorado bakers and some conservatives, you'd think the baked goods play an integral role, rather than serving as a tasty treat at the reception that follows.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

It's what I told you yesterday when you asked the first time.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I agree with you 100% regarding liberal caricatures galvanizing Trumpkins and even converting moderates to Trump.

Nobody likes whiners or self-righteous finger waggers telling them how to think. And that pretty much describes the Left right now.

But (huge caveat here), Ty isn't wrong. His main point, that conservatism doesn't really exist anymore, is correct. You're a conservative. Could you square Trump's platform with your traditional conservative views? Of course not. Which is why you went #NeverTrump and voted third party.

Ty's point would have been better made as, "These Trump supporters are not conservatives. They are just calling themselves that." I think that's what he intended to say. Which, of course, invites the next discussion. If Trump is largely anathema to both true conservatism and liberalism, do true conservatives and liberals align to fight his movement? Or do we have a three party system of liberals, true conservatives, and "temporarily deluded quasi-fascists"?
______
Note: I use "liberals" because I am socially liberal and think the word needs to be preserved. But I fear these animals are nearly as extinct as true conservatives, replaced with "progressives" who hold some authoritarian views ("I know what's best for you, and I'm going to make you follow my rules!").

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Re: Go and do likewise.
 

Just to underscore the point, if a conservative makes a sweeping and possibly tone-deaf characterization about liberals, I don't think anyone would jump to call it "arrogance". The propensity of conservatives (there, SEC Chick, now I'll think of you as a conservative again) to feel aggrieved and victimized by having to live in a country with liberals is truly remarkable. "Arrogant"? All I did is try out an too long for Twitter on an internet chat board for lawyers. I'm just describing what I see on Twitter and Facebook.

The idea that this "arrogance" drives anyone to vote for Republicans totally confuses cause and effect. Someone *is* a conservative because they react to liberals in this way. The reaction to libs and the desire to trigger libs is the essence of conservatism. My two cents: As awful as Trump is, Never Trumpers continue to see themselves as a conservative because her reaction to liberals is so strong, and that reaction puts her in a camp with Trump and other conservatives.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Dude, you knew what you were doing, and just decided to fuck us all.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

You don't need faith to accept Newton's Third Law.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I completely reject this fucked up notion that I have to somehow tiptoe around the fact that, for example, a not insignificant percentage of Trump supporters are racist xenophobic assholes because, if I actually articulate that, I am being a judgmental liberal elite driving people into Trump's arms. I just saw a video where a women, basically using Trump's exact words, yelled at a U.S. citizen of Mexican descent, saying Mexicans were rapists, animals, and drug dealers.

https://twitter.com/KenidraRWoods_/s...43243181027330

If some more moderate conservatives are going to embrace Trump, and his explicit emboldening of racial and ethnic hatred, because they see coastal arrogance as the greater evil, or because it hurts their fragile self-esteem to be told that some of their view are unacceptable, then they can rot in whatever fucking hell their moronic religion proselytizes about.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

This is a different discussion. We've been over that ground endlessly. There is nothing constructive to be discussed there. We will never agree.

But the bleating folks of the moment are not Hillary Democrats. Those moderates are also adrift.

The battle of the moment is between two groups with authoritarian bent. The Trumpkins wish to take us back to a '50s that never was. The progressives who've supplanted liberals and moderates as the bullhorn of the Democrats are busybodies who want all of us to live according to their rules. The latter is far more benign than the former, but does anyone wish to live under the tyranny of any group that thinks "it knows best"? I know I don't.

Buckley once said he'd rather be governed by random names in the phone book than Harvard faculty. (That's not anti-intellectual, as he was saying it as a "boorish Yalie" [hat tip, Montgomery Burns]). I find this sort of thinking persuasive when I consider some of the policy suggestions I hear from modern progressives. There's a definite air of, "We're smart, and we know what policy will work." Ah yes... and then the law of unintended consequences rears its head years later.

The fastest road to hell is paved with good intentions, with asphalt rollers driven by bright young kids with degrees who are sure they've got life figured out at 30, and their pure academic mentors who've never left the Ivory Tower.

I'm adrift because I do not wish to be governed by know it alls or know nothings. And I don't seem to be offered anything in the middle right now.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I don't think anyone has a duty to tiptoe around these people. I think calling them racists and xenophobes is fine. Many off them are, and that's just a fact, and I've personally said it to many of their faces.

It's when you lump all "conservatives" under the Trump umbrella that you lose moderates. SEC is right that a lot of traditional conservatives get seriously offended at being labeled xenophobes, racists, etc.

Pundits should be careful to retain the distinction between conservatives and hardcore Trump supporters. That latter should be called Trump Populists, or as I've noted, "temporarily deluded quasi-fascists."

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Thanks for reading my post, but you completely missed my point. When conservatives wear shirts that say, "fuck your feelings," no one calls them arrogant, and the mainstream media civility police don't leap into action. When Rep. Maxine Waters (D. - Cal.) makes ambiguous comments about shaming politicians, conservatives leap into outrage, an emotion that curiously expressed itself as more like gleeful celebration when Rep. Greg Gianforte (R. - Mont.) actually physically assaulted a reporter. As Michael Kinsley once said, I think, half of national politics is Republicans clutching their pearls about Democrats doing things that Republicans rolled out two election cycles earlier.

eta: "Mike Kinsley once wisely noted that half of politics is Republicans getting vapors when Democrats try out tactics Republicans pioneered two cycles earlier" link

And that wasn't my point either. My point is that conservatism *is* where most conservatives are. What is is has changed, because conservatives have changed in. People like SEC Chick have been left behind as the movement has gone somewhere else. The sooner the rest of us realize this and get a grip on it, the better. Pretending that there is some Platonic ideal of conservatism that most conservatives are ignorantly deviating from is just denial.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Total fucking nonsense.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Actually, the Hillary forces are pretty much winning everything in sight on the Democratic Party side these days. The Berners are falling flat. Have you missed the last 18 months of elections?

Of course, you know by now that Buckley was a fixture of my childhood, and someone I interacted with quite a bit. He was an elite and effete snob, and an out-of-the-closet racist, who would have been quite comfortable with the authoritarianism expressed by Trump. He wasn't complaining about the Harvard faculty thinking they were better than him, he was pointing out that he was better than them, and fully capable of manipulating random names in the phone book.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

That article is bullshit that proves my point. It's not clear whether the NYT reporter who wrote that article knew it, but Gina Anders is a longtime conservative activist. She is not changing her mind about anything because of "caricature." She worked on Ron Paul's campaign, for Christ's sake.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Not sure of your ability to speak on issues of national and international import. Can you see Canada from your porch? i can.

Quick Supreme Court Roundup
 

Colorado civil rights authorities saying mean things about a baker who won't bake a gay cake = unlawful religious discrimination.

Long, repeated record of saying you're going to ban Muslims from the country followed by actually doing it = not unlawful religious discrimination.

Re: Quick Supreme Court Roundup
 

Stealing that Supreme Court seat is really working out well for Republicans.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I never met him, but Buckley was a friend of a family member of mine.

My point wasn't that Buckley objected to people who thought themselves smarter than him. My point was that he doubted the intelligence of the progressives and thought himself smarter then them. We're in agreement on Buckley's view.

You are correct that the Hillary people are winning. But they aren't getting the media attention. The attention is going to the strident progressives.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

This is bullshit that proves SEC's point. If you think Ron Paul is a modern "conservative," or anything akin to a Trumpkin, you need Poli Sci 101.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I'm in a purple state. Anti-Trump Exhaustion is huge.

"I hate the guy. But I hate the endless criticism more."

"I hate the guy, but I like where the economy seems to be going."

"I wish the media would stop covering him and his critics. It's all you fucking hear. Enough already."

This pretty much paraphrases 80% of what I hear about the issue here. It's a "pox on both of their houses" sentiment. I know you don't like that because you see it as false equivalence, but that's where people are at.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

The question here is not whether Ron Paul is a conservative, but you are very wrong if you try to write him and his ilk out of the movement. The point here is that, contra you and the NYT, the fact that Gina Anders is sticking by Trump tells you nothing about whether liberal scolding changes anyone's minds. Here is part of her bio, cached from two weeks ago from the site of the PAC she worked for, before someone decided to scrub her from that page (huh -- I wonder why?):

Yes, Sebby, there is a swing voter who was ready to vote for Democrats until Sarah Sanders couldn't eat at the Red Hen and I described modern conservatism. Brilliant. Democrats should certain worry about whether they are offending Gina Anders and other PAC operatives like her -- that is the path to regaining political power.

And please, share that Poli Sci 101. For starters, why don't you tell me how many Ron Paul fans voted for Republicans in the last cycle, and how many voted for Democrats. Explain to me that many, many differences between Ron Paul supporters and modern conservatives. Clearly I have a lot to learn.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I don't see it as false equivalence. When someone says, "I hate the guy. But I hate the endless criticism more.", what they are saying is, I'm fundamentally a conservative, and will stick by him, but Trump isn't a very good leader. Someone who hates the endless criticism of Trump IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE THEIR MIND.

If someone says, "I hate the guy, but I like where the economy seems to be going.", and doesn't note that the ECONOMY WENT IN THE SAME DIRECTION FOR THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS UNDER OBAMA, what they are saying is that they are fundamentally a conservative, and will stick by him, but Trump isn't a very good leader. Someone who gives Trump credit for what the economy has been doing is demonstrating the political equivalent of fundamental attribution error.

If someone says, "I wish the media would stop covering him and his critics. It's all you fucking hear. Enough already.", they are either not interested in politics, which is a lot of people, or what they are saying is, I'm fundamentally a conservative, and will stick by him, but boy is he a fuck-up and I'd rather not hear about it any more.

In short, anyone who complains about having to hear from Trump's critics is identifying as basically pro-Trump. Yes, there are people who say those things. They are not swing voters.

Now tell me about a cocktail party you were at recently.

eta: Remember all the stories in the NYT in 2010 about how Obama voters were sticking by him, and about how Republicans needed to quit the angry talk and try to persuade them to change their minds? Yeah, me neither.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

off my corner, ho!

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Look, we're in a new world where we're embracing civility and this is not appropriate.

Please spell out "whore" next time.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

"I can't believe there's a President who has sex with porn stars and wants a space army and I still hate him."

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Fake news and fake tits!

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Not really disagreeing, but the one thing that he does very well is entirely consume the news cycle and I definitely sympathize with complaints about constantly hearing about him.

That the media and the rest of us keep falling for it is why he's going to get re-elected, but at least it doesn't seem to have coattails for the midterms, if the various specials are a guide.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Come on. That was a complete load of horseshit. Waters is something assholes get to point at to justify their bullshit. "She's encouraging intolerance! I can't vote for any party that has someone like her! I'll continue voting for assholes who ban Muslims, destroy families seeking asylum, cage children, roll back civil rights at an alarming rate, stomp on the LGBT community, steal Supreme Court seats, are caught up in fraud, scandal and treason, have diminished our standing across the world, etc., instead."

It's complete bullshit. Anyone who says their mind was changed based on what Waters said is lying through their crooked, rotten (most likely racist) teeth.

I completely disagree with refusing service to Sanders and shouting these racist, fascist assholes down when they're trying to live their lives. But where's the line at which government action results in personal repercussions? If they executed immigrants at the border as a deterrent are we then past the point where "people should be allowed to have different political viewpoints such that they aren't subject to personal harassment?" When do you start expecting real backlash on a personal level?

TM

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Your desire to create a world in which false equivalence is perfectly acceptable is absolutely mind-boggling.

One side wants to destroy everything, has Nazis marching in the streets, puts children in cages, believes that any black of Latino person who wants even a basic level of fair and safe treatment is a traitor to the country, etc.

The other side is asking to be treated with the respect that white, heterosexual people enjoy at such a level that, when they examine those other people asking for it, they think they're fucking crazy.

TM

Re: Quick Supreme Court Roundup
 

Yeah. This country is fucking over.

TM

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

All of this is bullshit. Trump is getting the level of negative attention he deserves based on his own fucking actions. If anyone is tired of the coverage or the criticism to the extent that they plan on voting for him again, then they are just making shit up to justify that vote because they know that what they're doing will be viewed negatively for endless reasons.

TM

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Sure, but you aren't complaining about his critics, and that's really what Sebby is on about.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

The point I wanted to make was a bit different. I agree with you that what Waters says will change no one's views on the right (and I think if Waters didn't exist they'd make up someone else an awful lot like her (or find someone, even if they needed to find a county commissioner or zoning appeals officer somewhere)).

But it's the idea that they don't have to have their own views of anything - their own moral compass - but can justify whatever they are doing based on it being not-Waters, not-Clinton or not-Obama. SEC was saying basically that conservatives were ready to ok putting kids in internment camps as long as Waters didn't like it.

What we are seeing is an abdication by much of the right of any sense of character or morality. They don't care how many pimps, rapists, pederasts or just plain old corrupt fucks they vote for, and they don't care what the rationale behind a trade war or a tax bill is (they won't have hearings and discuss them, anyways). It's a motto of "I don't care."

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Of course he can't really deliver for either one.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I am anti-Trump and anti-anti-Trump. I just want it all gone.

Four years of Bush bashing, four years of Obama hysteria from the right, and now four years of this.

It’s fucking exhausting.

Automation’s impact and the environment are what we should be discussing. They are urgent crises. A smart Republic would discuss those things as headline issues all day every day. Instead, we’re bleating about what the Idiot in Chief tweeted on the toilet. The only time we even come close to touching a serious environmental discussion, it’s about Pruitt’s affinity for first class travel.

We’re fucking fools. The pols lead around the media and the media leads us around. Pavlovian circle jerk, giving everyone the ability to vent while the real issues go unaddressed.

This shmuck feeds on eyeballs. Tune him out and whack him at the ballot box. And by that, I mean get out the vote at the street level. Because these virtue signallers on social media? They don’t vote. All they want to do is let you know how much they hate the bad guys. Most of the dumb fucks couldn’t even name four senators.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Are the environment and automation serious issues that are worthy of significant and prolonged discussion and debate? Of course. But if you are in a position where you never know if your son is going to be pulled over on a pretext (or maybe because he was smoking pot) and killed by the police (who will likely not face any severe consequences for having done so), or in a position where you might be confronted by someone who throws the president's words at you and tells that you are a rapist and an animal and should go back to your country (despite the fact that you are a U.S. citizen), or if you are in a position where you are growing up in a world where your president bragged about being able to sexually molest people of your gender because he had a power position over them, or in a position where your family was unable to join you in your country because of your religion, you might be excused for having more urgent issues that will ultimately prevent you from going to some cocktail party in the Philadelphia suburbs to listen to some arrogant know-it-all lecture you about what issues you should REALLY be interested in. I mean, those type of elitist cocktail party blowhards are enough to drive even those most moderate of liberals into the arms of the Maxine Waters of the world.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I don't think that's exactly right. A lot of what they do is motivating by the idea that there are real Americans, and there are other people, and the government ought to do more for real Americans and stick it to other people. There's a morality there. I disagree with it, but it's there.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Maybe if you could stick to one point, you would have to exhaust yourself inventing a new point of view with every post.

You were trying to explain that there are real actual swing voters who somehow are turned off of Democrats by Trump's critics. We know this because the New York Times found a long-time conservative activist who is sticking by Trump.

You are right about getting out the vote. Trump voters are not going to change their mind. Hopefully they will disappointed by what they got, and fewer of them will turn out. And the left needs to organize.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Go Maxine!!