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Re: Rudy Can Fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514940)

I don't believe very many people voted for Trump because they thought he'd return coal to it's rightful place atop the energy chain. I think they voted for him because they're terrified of the status they're losing. With that comes the "He'll take care of us before he takes care of those lazy blacks and shifty Mexicans and awful Muslims," but the primary reason was a return to the principle of White People First--not just Rich People First.

TM

I agree with this, but I also think a significant amount of people voted against Hillary. In my non-scientific poll of my parent's friends (who are relatively well educated), it was "I wouldn't vote for Hillary if she were the last person on earth, so I'll vote for the other person."

Re: Rudy Can Fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane? (Post 514944)

The essence of conservatism these days is pwning libs. What could be more conservative than voting Republican in order to vote against the Democrat, especially when the Democrat would be the first woman President?

Re: Rudy Can Fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514940)

I really don't want to say anything to minimize the very real and extreme racism and xenophobia behind Trump's rise, but this understates the equally strong level of misogyny.

The wrong question

So, as I was Wonking this morning, I read you guys going back and forth on whether we can determine which political party is generally smarter. I don't think this is the right question because almost everyone is stupid. The right question is: Which party is more educated?

When I say, "educated," I don't mean strictly good grades, college achievement, post-graduate studies, etc.--although that's part of it. I mean being open to learning, whether that mean accepting science, being open to understanding different people and cultures, listening to and acceptance of facts, and adapting to change and progress (technological, social, whatever).

Obviously everything I'm about to say falls in the category of generalizations and exaggeration.

If you live in the middle of nowhere, do the same job your daddy did and his daddy did, know no one who doesn't look like you and who isn't in the same position as you, are heavily religious and attend the type of churches filled with people who have the same limitations, didn't attend college, and watch Fox News, you are uneducated when it comes to almost everything. And the fact that you are isolated with people of similar viewpoints means not only is there little chance that you will be exposed to any type of new ideas, but every stupid idea you have will be reinforced by the people in your community. You will never be open. You will always be uneducated as to anything outside of that world.

Your views on diverse people are completely uninformed and ruled by ignorance and fear.

You are resistant to learning a new trade or job as the world changes around you and options within your geographic reach are non-existent.

Your post-school education is rooted in religious "teachings" that are as slanted and ignorant and designed to appeal to your already-limited view of the world.

Any reasonable people who might give you a different perspective have fled at the very first opportunity.

I've said this a million times. Our biggest problem in this country is that we design everything to avoid interaction with people who are not like us. Cities surely aren't perfect and people sure try to craft an experience in which they mix with people unlike them as little as possible, but it's just not possible to live in them and not have some exposure to different types of people, more opportunity, lots of ideas and differing viewpoints, actual interactions with other cultures, exposure to smart and accomplished women or any in positions of authority,* etc. Education. Ongoing.

Don't get me wrong. You can be ignorant as fuck and live in a city. And you can be enlightened as hell and work in a coal mine. But in either case, you really have to go out of your way to make it that way. Easier to be uneducated as to anything outside what you'd like to know is true in suburbs, easier still exurbs, and a piece of cake in rural areas.

TM

*Added after reading GGG's response. Shameful that it doesn't automatically pop up when I'm trying to make a list.

Re: Rudy Can Fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 514946)

I really don't want to say anything to minimize the very real and extreme racism and xenophobia behind Trump's rise, but this understates the equally strong level of misogyny.

It's my fault for not including it. It's part of the lost status.

TM

Re: Rudy Can Fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 514941)

You don't think there was an economic aspect to it for many of that sort people? "I'm poor because of blacks and Mexicans being given all the good jobs I'd otherwise have."

The folks in my extended family who voted for Trump are mostly in law enforcement. They have perfectly good jobs, but like the idea of hiring lots more law enforcement and giving them more leeway to do what they want.

Re: Rudy Can Fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 514943)

Bringing back coal jobs is a big FU to people who talk about new-economy service jobs as a replacement for the well-paid, manly work that Trump voters grew up thinking were their entitlement.

It's also an FU to the hippy environmentalist queers too.

Re: The wrong question

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514947)

So, as I was Wonking this morning, I read you guys going back and forth on whether we can determine which political party is generally smarter. I don't think this is the right question because almost everyone is stupid. The right question is: Which party is more educated?

When I say, "educated," I don't mean strictly good grades, college achievement, post-graduate studies, etc.--although that's part of it. I mean being open to learning, whether that mean accepting science, being open to understanding different people and cultures, listening to and acceptance of facts, and adapting to change and progress (technological, social, whatever).

Obviously everything I'm about to say falls in the category of generalizations and exaggeration.

If you live in the middle of nowhere, do the same job your daddy did and his daddy did, know no one who doesn't look like you and who isn't in the same position as you, are heavily religious and attend the type of churches filled with people who have the same limitations, didn't attend college, and watch Fox News, you are uneducated when it comes to almost everything. And the fact that you are isolated with people of similar viewpoints means not only is there little chance that you will be exposed to any type of new ideas, but every stupid idea you have will be reinforced by the people in your community. You will never be open. You will always be uneducated as to anything outside of that world.

Your views on diverse people are completely uninformed and ruled by ignorance and fear.

You are resistant to learning a new trade or job as the world changes around you and options within your geographic reach are non-existent.

Your post-school education is rooted in religious "teachings" that are as slanted and ignorant and designed to appeal to your already-limited view of the world.

Any reasonable people who might give you a different perspective have fled at the very first opportunity.

I've said this a million times. Our biggest problem in this country is that we design everything to avoid interaction with people who are not like us. Cities surely aren't perfect and people sure try to craft an experience in which they mix with people unlike them as little as possible, but it's just not possible to live in them and not have some exposure to different types of people, more opportunity, lots of ideas and differing viewpoints, actual interactions with other cultures, exposure to smart and accomplished women or any in positions of authority,* etc. Education. Ongoing.

Don't get me wrong. You can be ignorant as fuck and live in a city. But you really have to go out of your way to make it that way. Easier to do in suburbs, easier still exurbs, and a piece of cake in rural areas.

TM

*Added after reading GGG's response. Shameful that it doesn't automatically pop up when I'm trying to make a list.

I strongly believe that what is lacking right now in Northern and Midwestern rural America (it's much more common in Southern rural America) is sufficient immigration. Those areas became American's heartland when they were full of hardworking people speaking different languages and with different religions.

Re: Rudy Can Fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514948)

It's my fault for not including it. It's part of the lost status.

TM

Consider it a friendly amendment.

Re: The wrong question

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514947)

Our biggest problem in this country is that we design everything to avoid interaction with people who are not like us. Cities surely aren't perfect and people sure try to craft an experience in which they mix with people unlike them as little as possible, but it's just not possible to live in them and not have some exposure to different types of people, more opportunity, lots of ideas and differing viewpoints, actual interactions with other cultures, exposure to smart and accomplished women or any in positions of authority,* etc. Education. Ongoing.

In cities that are smaller and less dense than yours, you can still isolate yourself in your car. Transporting yourself other than in a car (i.e., transit, biking, walking) means at least some exposure to people who aren't like you.

Re: Rudy Can Fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 514945)

You're not wrong.

Re: Rudy Can Fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 514950)

It's also an FU to the hippy environmentalist queers too.

That's why conservatives support nuclear power.

Re: The wrong question

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 514947)

I agree with this entirely. Nothing cures adherence to bigoted "isms" like regular exposure to individual members of the groups about which one recklessly generalizes.

But I think the current problem goes beyond just exposure to people of different backgrounds.

A large percentage of the country has lost the ability to engage each other intellectually. Conversation is dead, advocacy its replacement. People view discussions not as opportunities to have their minds changed, or to test the validity of their positions, but as zero sum games.

There is no absolute right or wrong in most complex matters. The Left and the Right are a yin and yang. Everybody sensible person knows this. A society run on exclusively progressive or exclusively conservative policies cannot persist. There has to be horse trading. There used to be horse trading. But it's damn hard to horse trade when you you come to the negotiating table and open with, "Everything you stand for is fundamentally invalid."

Every civics class should require students to memorize this statement:

"Progressivism and Conservatism are both incomplete, like any 'ism.' Neither is tenable alone, both working best as counterweights to one another, ideological checks and balances."

Re: Rudy Can Fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 514955)

That's why conservatives support nuclear power.

Except they were probably right about that. Past tense because solar is rapidly changing the equation, but more nukes 20-30 years ago would probably have been a good thing, on net.

Re: Rudy Can Fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 514957)

Except they were probably right about that. Past tense because solar is rapidly changing the equation, but more nukes 20-30 years ago would probably have been a good thing, on net.

Maybe so, but that's not why they support nuclear power.