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-   -   Politics: Where we struggle to kneel in the muck. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=630)

Sidd Finch 10-08-2004 03:17 PM
Lies Lies and more Lies
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
or maybe they just got the candidates mixed up, what with Kerry proposing mandatory gov't service...

http://web.archive.org/web/200402100...es/natservice/

Where do you see the word "mandatory" in there? It's not even implied, and references to "helping young people serve their country in return for college" and the setting of a "goal" of one million demonstrate that Kerry is not even suggesting it be mandatory.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 10-08-2004 03:18 PM
Thanks, Hank!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I have actually been saying they're meaningless myself. They are far too volatile. Michigan was tied yesterday now Kerry is up 10%.

www.realclearpolitics.com has been more consistant, but there isn't a pretty map.
Actually, Hank, there is a map!

I regularly check them myself, and they follow the 3 poll averaging approach. Neither is fully satisfactory, but the raw data is addictive - even if it doesn't say whether or not any of the Candidates are a FOD.

The Larry Davis Experience 10-08-2004 03:19 PM
Lies Lies and more Lies
 
Quote:
Originally posted by sgtclub
This well all be true, but it is not the reason they have the impression they do. It is because the DEMs have been pushing that BS. Same with the suppression of the black vote. That is just some dirty fucking shit.
As dirty as "the dems want to ban your bible"? I'm just trying to set up my dirty fucking shit continuum here.

Gattigap 10-08-2004 03:21 PM
Newsflash - Kerry guides Bush policy in Iraq.

Quote:
Recent operations to stamp out unrest in Tal Afar, Samarra and the area south of Baghdad are the first signs of a new, six-pronged strategy for Iraq that has been approved at the highest levels of the Bush administration, the Times said.


Places specifically being looked at, according to unnamed administration officials, include Falluja, Ramadi and the northern Babil Province.


"What you have here is a new approach," a senior administration official said.


"We have to work Samarra. We have to work Ramadi. We've done our bit in Samarra. Now we're consolidating and cleaning up. We're doing kinetic strikes in Falluja."


Civilians involved in the process also told the Times that the new approach was formulated in part to counter criticism from President Bush (news - web sites)'s Democratic challenger, Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites), that the administration has no plan for Iraq.
Now, if the Bush Administration couldn't stand up to the pressures that John Kerry represented, how can we expect them to stand up to Al Qaida?

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 10-08-2004 03:23 PM
Coming soon to an election near you.
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Two things. I think you've been more entertaining recently, particularly when your avatar was that unfairly-treated chick who was fired on the Apprentice.

Second, my one and only brother has not been sent there though he has been activated numerous times since 9/11 for all kinds of stuff. And he's a hard-core midlevel combat-oriented air assault/light infantry reserve/NG officer. He's senior enough that parts of his old units have been activated and sent to do all kinds of things, including taking the part of insurgents.

If anyone cares to out me based on the information I've provided here (in this post and others), feel free. I'm Right and I'm not afraid of being recognized by strangers in the same way I'm recognized by friends and family.

The bottom line of my views is that Rummy/Wolfy etc. are absolutely hated by the military. I've made numerous comments comparing them to McNamara etc. The simple fact is that the Secretary of Defense should not pretend he rose through the ranks and became a General, unless he did. He should find out what the people need to get a job done, and either give it to them or not undertake the job. Rummy did neither. My reading, and that of many others, is Rummy found generals who wouldn't disagree with his Napoleonic daydreams and made sure they were in charge, replacing others in the process.

Other than that, I'm all in favor of taking the fight to the enemy. Right idea, wrong implementation.

Of course, I have more distant relatives and friends and friends' kids who have been activated and sent there, almost entirely very junior level people. I'm not sure I'd consider their word as strongly as I consider the input I get from my brother. My brother is, like me, hard-core Right. And the input I get is that Rummy and his crew are the weakest link in the Bush Admin. Comparing a supposed "neo-con" to McNamara is no lite step, and yet, the guy is guilty of exactly what the Right (and really, anyone with a brain) complained about for 30 years after Vietnam.

Anyway, that's my input. My one and only brother is at risk. He and I are all in favor of engaging in war with our enemies, where feasible. But only if the generals are allowed to draw up a battle plan and use it. In Iraq, there is no reasonable reading that suggests they were allowed to do so. Don't believe me? Just ask Shalishkavili and Shinseki.

Hello
I think the "listen to the Generals" theme is a consistent, right or left, from those with some level of military background (OK, I'm basically the only male in family in the last 100 years without at least bars, but I know enough to respect years of training and experience). Best to your brother.

SlaveNoMore 10-08-2004 03:24 PM
Lies Lies and more Lies
 
Quote:
Sidd Finch
Where do you see the word "mandatory" in there? It's not even implied, and references to "helping young people serve their country in return for college" and the setting of a "goal" of one million demonstrate that Kerry is not even suggesting it be mandatory.
Reading is Fundamental, as the saying goes:

Quote:
As President, John Kerry will ensure that every high school student in America performs community service as a requirement for graduation....

Gattigap 10-08-2004 03:29 PM
Another JibJab movie
 
The folks who brought you This Land is Your Land have another short, Good to Be in DC, sung to the tune of "Dixie."

Despite the improbable melody, it's not bad.

Replaced_Texan 10-08-2004 03:39 PM
The argument for a big win
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Gattigap
Slave's favorite pundit Sullivan muses:



I think this election needs to be either a decisive win or at least a clear electoral one, for either candidate. We read that both sides are preparing for a post-election fight that will make Florida 2000 look like a bake sale. Beyond the problem that a contested election will produce a crippled winner, I'm so sick of hearing about this stuff that I can't imagine us refighting these battles for another 4 years.
My stomach dropped when I read the following in Atrios this morning:

Quote:
I want to add that the sad thing is both sides (or at least, I hope both sides) are of course gearing up to fight the post-election battle, both the legal one and the publicc relations battle. No matter what happens, if the election is anything approaching "close," both sides are going to cast a cloud of illegitimacy over the other person's victory. Whether or not any side can try to use the legal system to yank back a victory is one question, but the noise machine will be cranked up high. The Right will scream "voter fraud" everytime a Hispanic person votes, and the Left will be screaming about voter intimidation and voting machines. Aside from the individual merits of any of those claims, both sides will inevitably be making them in order to control the post-election day spin.

Hank Chinaski 10-08-2004 03:43 PM
Thanks, Hank!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by dtb
Why did it have no credibility when Hank was trumpeting it?
jewess

bilmore 10-08-2004 03:44 PM
The argument for a big win
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
My stomach dropped when I read the following in Atrios this morning:
I've been contacted to serve as one such legal-eagle poll-watcher by the party. (I said no.) Four of my Dem friends are already signed up on their side. And this is Minnesota. I'm guessing that, in Florida, the biggest problem for voters is going to be threading their way to the voting booth past all of the watchers already filling the rooms.

Not Bob 10-08-2004 03:45 PM
Lies Lies and more Lies
 
Quote:
Originally posted by The Larry Davis Experience
As dirty as "the dems want to ban your bible"? I'm just trying to set up my dirty fucking shit continuum here.
Or as dirty as "that judge is a pedophile" (when directed to someone running for supreme court justice against one of Karl Rove's clients in Alabama)?

Great article on Rove in this month's Atlantic -- sadly, only the introduction is available on-line. http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200411/green

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 10-08-2004 03:45 PM
Thanks, Hank!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
jewess
Mmmmm. Jewess!

Say_hello_for_me 10-08-2004 03:48 PM
The argument for a big win
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
My stomach dropped when I read the following in Atrios this morning:
I like how the author ties the Right's potential protests to racial identity. That is fucking bullshit, and the author should be beaten just for trying to inject that sort of bullshit race-paranoia into an otherwise straight analysis.

Funny how the two ethnic groups most strongly opposed to gay marriage are supposedly black and hispanic (if "hispanic" were properly considered a single ethicity). Is this an attempt to knock somebody back in line? Sorta like how the Democrats are telling blacks in the South that the Republicans don't want you to vote?

Fuck him and fuck the horse he rode in on. Fucking fuckety fuck racists.

Gattigap 10-08-2004 03:51 PM
The argument for a big win
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
I like how the author ties the Right's potential protests to racial identity. That is fucking bullshit, and the author should be beaten just for trying to inject that sort of bullshit race-paranoia into an otherwise straight analysis.
Relax. He meant the right, not your Right.

taxwonk 10-08-2004 03:53 PM
Tax Question
 
Quote:
Originally posted by bilmore
Anyone here who knows tax (really knows, I mean, not knows, like me, merely how to spell the word) if this is nonsensical or realistic?

==========================

"Hooray for the AMT? Taxpayers have to either pay their regular income tax or the "Alternative Minimum Tax" (AMT)--whichever is higher. The AMT was designed to catch rich people who use loopholes and deductions to escape taxation. But because the AMT isn't indexed for inflation, more and more middle class taxpayers will have to pay it. Conventional wisdom holds that Congress will have to step in and correct this situation before middle class taxpayers revolt. Indeed, the need to do something about the horrible AMT is considered the driving political engine behind proposals for overhauling the regular tax code, according to the NYT's Edmund Andrews. ... But why isn't the unindexed AMT a feature rather than a bug? That is, why isn't it a good vehicle for gradually introducing tax reform and simplification? How? Keep all the deductions and credits in the tax code, but simplify the AMT so it's the tax code reformers really want. And keep it unindexed. Then, as the AMT hits further and further down the income scale, more and more taxpayers will have to shift to the reformed AMT system--until most Americans don't even bother with their old regular tax calculations. They just pay the simplified tax, which is maybe a little bit higher than the old complicated tax. (You want simplicity, you pay a bit more!) Presto--the old tax code has been gradually put out of its misery like the proverbial frog in slowly heated water. ...Don't fight the AMT--surrender to it!"
I many ways, the AMT calculation is more complex than the regular tax. In addition, the way the law is now written, you have to calculate your regular tax before you can pay the AMT (i.e., you cannot pay the AMT unless your regular tax as determined on the 1040 is lower). There are many other idiosyncrasies that make this a real pain in the ass. In addition, there is no way that anyone will ever convince me that two tax systems operating in parallel but with different rates and rules, is simpler.

But, my main objection to it is this: I want Congress to have some balls. If they want to change the Code, then do it. Lower taxes, raise taxes, whatever. But do it in the sunshine, where the voters can see what they're doing, and grade, that is, vote, accordingly.

dtb 10-08-2004 03:54 PM
Thanks, Hank!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
jewess
Uh -- that's a capital "J" sheigitz.

taxwonk 10-08-2004 03:55 PM
Slave? Anyone?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Any comment on the current rumor in blogistan that this photograph from the debate shows Bush with some kind of communication device strapped to his back, so he could get prompting from afar?

http://www.electoral-vote2.com/images/bulge.jpg

Even Drudge seems to be pushing it now.
He couldn't have done as badly as he did if he had any help from the sidelines.

Sidd Finch 10-08-2004 03:57 PM
Lies Lies and more Lies
 
Quote:
Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Reading is Fundamental, as the saying goes:
Ah. Comment withdrawn. I avoid clicking links on the boards, because this is a big enough time-drain anyway.

Mandatory public service -- bad idea.

Besides, we'll need all those people available to be drafted.

dtb 10-08-2004 04:00 PM
Slave? Anyone?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by taxwonk
He couldn't have done as badly as he did if he had any help from the sidelines.
That's what I thought originally; however (and, surprisingly, more charitably), I now think that it may partially explain why he looked so utterly nonplussed -- circuit overload.

Then again, if he was going to cheat -- you'd think he'd have rehearsed the "talking in the earpiece, then spewing out what you tell me" schtick. Apparently, this Cyrano act is not unprecedented for this president.

It is curious that they didn't want any camera angles shot from behind the candidates -- it seems like an odd request.

Hank Chinaski 10-08-2004 04:01 PM
Lies Lies and more Lies
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Ah. Comment withdrawn. I avoid clicking links on the boards, because this is a big enough time-drain anyway.

Mandatory public service -- bad idea.

Besides, we'll need all those people available to be drafted.
it was my fault. I wasn't careful in ensuring I copied all I should have, or it was a right wing set-up (hi Ty)

Tyrone Slothrop 10-08-2004 04:08 PM
Slave? Anyone?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by dtb
That's what I thought originally; however (and, surprisingly, more charitably), I now think that it may partially explain why he looked so utterly nonplussed -- circuit overload.

Then again, if he was going to cheat -- you'd think he'd have rehearsed the "talking in the earpiece, then spewing out what you tell me" schtick. Apparently, this Cyrano act is not unprecedented for this president.

It is curious that they didn't want any camera angles shot from behind the candidates -- it seems like an odd request.
Kudos on the correct use of "nonplussed."

(Speaking of "nonplussed," hi Hank!)

The Larry Davis Experience 10-08-2004 04:10 PM
The argument for a big win
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
I like how the author ties the Right's potential protests to racial identity. That is fucking bullshit, and the author should be beaten just for trying to inject that sort of bullshit race-paranoia into an otherwise straight analysis.
Like it or not, there definitely has been an increased homeland security presence around voter registration efforts focused at latinos, and thus a corresponding chorus of protest from those people affected (who, out here, are Dems, despite the admin's immigration proposals). I've seen several stories on this theme. You should probably take that with a grain of salt, since I do live in crackpot lefty central, but on the other hand this wasn't the gratuitous race-bait out of left field you make it out to be.

The funny thing is that one of these articles used a similar anecdote from Florida, but as we saw during the most recent felon list controversy Florida's hispanics actually vote republican by a wide margin.

sgtclub 10-08-2004 04:10 PM
Lies Lies and more Lies
 
Quote:
Originally posted by The Larry Davis Experience
As dirty as "the dems want to ban your bible"? I'm just trying to set up my dirty fucking shit continuum here.
Yes

Hank Chinaski 10-08-2004 04:12 PM
Slave? Anyone?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Kudos on the correct use of "nonplussed"
Kudos on the correct use of "kudos"
(Speaking of "kudos," hi plf!)

SlaveNoMore 10-08-2004 04:17 PM
Lies Lies and more Lies
 
Quote:
Not Bob
Or as dirty as "that judge is a pedophile" (when directed to someone running for supreme court justice against one of Karl Rove's clients in Alabama)?
Was he?

bilmore 10-08-2004 04:18 PM
Slave? Anyone?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Kudos on the correct use of "kudos"
(Speaking of "kudos," hi plf!)
I never understand you guys.

http://www.roughgroove.com/2004_09_2...ckingHorns.jpg
(Kudos.)

(edited the wrong thing, then undid the edit--RT)

Not Bob 10-08-2004 04:22 PM
Lies Lies and more Lies
 
Quote:
Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Was he?
Touche. I have no idear. The dude won despite the rumor, and wasn't later arrested, so I assume so.

Replaced_Texan 10-08-2004 04:23 PM
Slave? Anyone?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by bilmore
I never understand you guys.

(picture of Kudos)

(Kudos.)
You know, occassionally, their horns get interlocked, and they get stuck. Then they end up starving to death, unless another predator shows up and eats them both. It's very sad.

(now edited the right thing--RT)

Shape Shifter 10-08-2004 04:32 PM
Drudge, the Lonely Man
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Gattigap
Sad, sad. Has this man never heard of campaign sex? Someone buy him a copy of Primary Colors and send him to the FoxNews tent.

http://www.wonkette.com/images/matt,...craigslist.jpg
Drudge, Matt. FOD and egg fetishist who's done great damage to his gay brothers and sisters by aiding the cause of fascists, intolerant orthodox Christians, and conservative scum. Ethically challenged hypocritical lackey and moral catamite to right-wingers. We remember you from the old days, Matt-o, and when you fall back to obscurity we'll be waiting with sharpened knives.

http://www.geocities.com/mnussitch/gossip.html

SlaveNoMore 10-08-2004 04:34 PM
Lies Lies and more Lies
 
Quote:
Not Bob
Touche. I have no idear.
Me either. Just curious.

Quote:
The dude won despite the rumor, and wasn't later arrested...
Sounds like Roman Polanski and his Oscar.

SlaveNoMore 10-08-2004 04:36 PM
Drudge, the Lonely Man
 
Quote:
Shape Shifter
Drudge, Matt. FOD and egg fetishist who's done great damage to his gay brothers and sisters by aiding the cause of fascists, intolerant orthodox Christians, and conservative scum. Ethically challenged hypocritical lackey and moral catamite to right-wingers. We remember you from the old days, Matt-o, and when you fall back to obscurity we'll be waiting with sharpened knives.

http://www.geocities.com/mnussitch/gossip.html
You know, I read this too. And I still don't get the "egg fetishist" part? WTF is that??

http://www.massdistraction.org/weblog/humpty-dumpty.jpg

sgtclub 10-08-2004 04:40 PM
Where's the Outrage
 
Penn state senator calls R a "faggot." Let's see the coverage this get's.

I talked to Less and:

1."little or none" is -350
2. "go by the wayside like Jackson and Byrd is -250

http://pennlive.com/news/patriotnews...7258250840.xml

Tyrone Slothrop 10-08-2004 04:48 PM
There was a debate????
 
Quote:
Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Cheney's best line of the night, bar none, was:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now if [Kerry/Edwards] couldn't stand up to the pressures that Howard Dean represented, how can we expect them to stand up to Al Qaida?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Congratulations for doing such a good job of sticking to the RNC's talking points -- it puts you in the company of a number of journalistic hacks:

Quote:
BC'04 TALKING POINTS: Oops. Looks like an overeager Bush-Cheney campaign staffer sent the following out to the campaign's press list:
  • TO: BC'04 Surrogates
    FROM: BC'04 Communication
    RE: Talking Points

    We will be sending more talking points later this evening, but the decisive line by Vice President Cheney during the debate was the following:

    "So they, in effect, decided they would cast an anti-war vote, and they voted against the troops. Now, if they couldn't stand up to the pressures that Howard Dean represented, how can we expect them to standup to Al Qaeda?"

    Supporting Materials:

    Sen. Joe Biden (D-DE) Said Kerry's Decision To Vote Against The Iraq Supplemental Was An Attempt "To Prove To Dean's Guys" That He Was "Not A Warmonger." "But Biden's bill had no chance of passing in a Republican-dominated Senate, and Kerry's absurdly abbreviated account of the matter--'I did vote for the eighty-seven billion before I voted against it'--has left him open to relentless Republican ridicule. Biden himself ultimately voted for the money, and he confirmed that Kerry's decision not to was 'tactical,' an attempt 'to prove to Dean's guys I'm not a warmonger.'" (Philip Gourevitch, "Damage Control," The New Yorker, 7/26/04)

    **Please forward to all surrogate lists

It will be fun to watch which Bush surrogates obey these orders and repeat this line and which don't.

UPDATE: Bill Kristol just told his Fox News audience that Cheney's line about Dean was the best line of the night. A minute later on the same program Rich Lowry said, "And Bill is absolutely right about that Howard Dean line, which I thought was devastating." Talk about message discipline.
TNR. Kos nailed a reporter at CNN repeating it as well, but his search function baffles me.

SlaveNoMore 10-08-2004 04:56 PM
There was a debate????
 
Quote:
Tyrone Slothrop
Congratulations for doing such a good job of sticking to the RNC's talking points -- it puts you in the company of a number of journalistic hacks:
Call me the Josh Marshall of the right.


Quote:
Kos.... baffles me.
Me too. What a schmoe.

Tyrone Slothrop 10-08-2004 04:58 PM
There was a debate????
 
Quote:
Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Call me the Josh Marshall of the right.
Don't make me get all Will Rogers on you. And if the DNC had it's shit together enough to send out talking points, I'm sure there are plenty of lefty hacks who would be happy to repeat them, but Marshall's not one of them.

sebastian_dangerfield 10-08-2004 05:01 PM
Slave? Anyone?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by taxwonk
He couldn't have done as badly as he did if he had any help from the sidelines.
Being a total chick about my clothing, I know exactly what that "bump" is... A well tailored suit (Bush buys Oxxford) hugs the shoulders snugly. When you lean over, the fabric in exactly the area where the "bump" is located will become taut and form that "bump". The light on Bush from above creates a shadow below the tightened fabric, thus creating the appearance of a bulge.

I'm not at all surprised the sort of consipracy theorists who post this stuff would be unfamiliar with how a suit drapes.

God, did I just write that?

bilmore 10-08-2004 05:03 PM
There was a debate????
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
And if the DNC had it's shit together enough to send out talking points . . .
Does sending out tens of millions of e-mails prior to the debates asking everyone to write letters after, and giving the specific points to be made in those letters, count?

bilmore 10-08-2004 05:04 PM
Lies Lies and more Lies
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Not Bob
Touche. I have no idear. The dude won despite the rumor, and wasn't later arrested, so I assume so.
He was heavily involved in several children's shelters and other programs, and so there were a number of pics circulating of him holding hands with some boys.

No, he wasn't.

Tyrone Slothrop 10-08-2004 05:05 PM
There was a debate????
 
Quote:
Originally posted by bilmore
Does sending out tens of millions of e-mails prior to the debates asking everyone to write letters after, and giving the specific points to be made in those letters, count?
I know that there are lefties doing that, but I wasn't aware that the DNC had anything to do with it. I thought other people had moved to fill the gap left by McAuliffe's crack organization, which was clearly focused on other things. Apparently they can't get yard signs distributed this year, either.

What do I know? I'm not getting that kind of spam.

bilmore 10-08-2004 05:05 PM
Slave? Anyone?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Being a total chick . . .
You'all outed Not Me while I was gone?

Damn. This one I wouldn't have guessed.


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