Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I think I'm missing your point here. Are you being completely facetious? Seems pretty clear you are.

I intentionally ignored Sebby's link (and based on the last few days of posts, boy am I glad I did), so give me a little space to be incorrect here. But what the fuck is this? What liberals want to act like no blacks commit crime? Is this a slick way of effectively ignoring people asking that blacks be given the same type of treatment as whites (namely, when white people commit crime, it's always an individual failing as opposed to when black people commit a crime when white people so often attribute it to the fact that they are black)?

And I think I missed all those "all blacks good, all whites bad" posts here. Link please.

Also, the stats are juked. If you stop black people at higher rates, indict them at higher rates, convict them at higher rates, you don't get to point to those stats while ignoring the stats that say that black people who are stopped are less or equally likely to possess drugs or have committed crimes. It's a silly game that racists use to justify their theories that black people are inherently criminal.

They also don't even take into account class when they start spewing stats. If you want to compare black crime to white crime (even without taking into account the racism involved with arrests, prosecutions, and convictions), you would have to compare a segment of the white population that matches up economically with where the black population sits. That'll never happen.

Okay, I see where you're going now and think we're saying the same thing.

TM

From Frank Rich, Noted Alt-Right Intellectual
 

Mic drop: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...can-dream.html

ETA: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...al-crisis.html

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

OK, fair. Thanks.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

O.K., this is hard because I am not as apt as you at preventing my rampant emotions from completely disrupting my ability to think critically. But I think I am getting your point. If politics were a meal you were having in a restaurant, it would not be a traditional meal where you, for example, pick an appetizer or salad from a list of several such offerings, and then pick one entree out of the five or six they have available. That's more like old school GOP. Nor is it a tapas or small plate situation where you get a number of different dishes, none of which is really an entree, but together they fulfill the role of the traditional appetizer-entree-dessert format. That's more like identity politics. It's more like a meal where you have multiple appetizers and entrees all available to you at the same time, and you serve yourself so you can have a little bit of each, if you wish, or just a few of the offerings, or you could just fill your plate with meat from the carving station and call it a meal. You know what, I'm sorry, this makes no sense. I don't know where I got the idea for this stupid fucking metaphor in the first place. It's moronic. Like sharpshooting with a shotgun. No, that metaphor was stupid too. Never mind.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Here's the metaphor you want. It's like a shit sandwich. Yeah, there may be shit on the inside, but you've got to focus on the bread, the bread is good.

Yum.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Leave this stuff to others. GGG has your proxy.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Quarter Cask?

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Politics is like an all-you-can-eat buffet consisting solely of shit sandwiches. Brilliant. Thank you.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I have found it a good idea to apply skepticism to every buffet.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Moral/political certitude = Penny loafers.

Don’t.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

In an effort to move away from the most pedantic, ponderous week of name calling drivel this Board has seen in many a year, may I suggest the following change of topics to foreign affairs, similar to the old James Bond video game Global Domination of the World, that Sean Connery played with Klaus Maria Brandauer for the right to keep Kim Basinger.


If you wanted to put the international Game of Thrones in six pages, I believe this is as succinct and comprehensive a summary of the current Great Game you're likely to find.


https://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic.../realist-world

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I for one wasn't calling sebby anything- I was asking if a guy I had never heard of before wasn't in fact racist- I don't think anyone else drifted too far from that

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

As you wish. I delete "name calling" and stand by the balance of the text. Move. On.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

you think last week was "pedantic" and instead want us to opine on how the US might play an international dance with China? Plus we have to register for some geeked out journal?

Someone goofed on a typical 1970s "father" rile this way_ "My wife controls the unimportant decisions in our family, what we eat, where we vacation, how the kids get raised day to day. Me, I handle the more important things, like what US economic policy should be."

Maybe I don't know the def of pedantic?

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

pe·dan·tic
pəˈdan(t)ik/
adjective
lets jump to the synonyms:



overscrupulous, scrupulous, precise, exact, perfectionist, punctilious, meticulous, fussy, fastidious, finicky; dogmatic, purist, literalist, literalistic, formalist;
casuistic, casuistical, sophistic, sophistical;
captious, hair-splitting, quibbling;
informalnitpicking, persnickety

Re: From Frank Rich, Noted Alt-Right Intellectual
 

In retrospect, Clinton's acquiescence to right-wing insistence that government is bad was a massive strategic failure that empowered "starve the beast" as a governing strategy and has left us without the means to stave off three decades of upward redistribution of income and wealth.

Yes, the democrats are complicit in the undermining of functioning government, but they are also the only possible hope to restore it.

Re: From Frank Rich, Noted Alt-Right Intellectual
 

Wait... I thought everything was going well? I mean, the market's up, unemployment's down, and all those jobs being eliminated are being replaced with equally well-paying positions in new industries created by the tech disruptors and cheap foreign labor. Adam Fucking Smith's cycle, in all it's glorious wonder.

These last ten years haven't been a phantom recovery, have they? We haven't been blowing up another asset bubble to get the baby boomers who are dependent on the market to the finish line, have we? Please don't tell me much of this growth has been fueled by things like buybacks. I'd lose faith in this country. Hell, a lot of people would lose faith in this country. They'd think it was a rigged game and then elect some kind of demagogue.

No... No. That can't be true. This has been a real recovery. And things are just dandy. People just need to develop a more sunny disposition! It might not be morning in America, but it's a brunch hour, and if you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps, why gosh darnit, you can be the next Horatio Alger! Go on out there, Mr. Millennial, and get yourself that brass ring in that shiny new gig economy of ours!

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Game, set, match.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

For fuck's sake, Hank, you're doing this all wrong!

I'm tired of you're being in the middle on things. You and your confusing views, some of which are conservative, some of which are liberal, most of which are moderate. You've no backbone, man! With all that thinking and considering of things. You listened to Sam Harris before passing judgment on him. Who does that?

You'd better get with the fucking program and believe in something. Pick a side. Doesn't matter which, but pick one. You know the teams.

And when you do, start branding others as members of competing teams.

It's all about belief. What do stand for, Hank? Whose team banner are you holding? You contemplative sorts aren't doing anyone any favors. What we need more of in this country is people who've picked a side. People who see every issue through a prism of beliefs. Because beliefs, man -- that's where it's at! The more you buy into what a group's thinking, or feeling (feelings are huge, too... remember, nothing is more sacred than empathy), the happier you'll be. Feel that warmth wash over you... You believe, you've an ethos, you're aligned with others. You might even say you've got a mantra.

It's much more comfortable than trying to figure things out on an issue by issue basis. That'll just make you unhappy. And no one will invite you to anything.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Your perception of what is happening around you is batshit crazy.

TM

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

It's truly remarkable.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

The country is tribalizing into warring factions with biases. You think you're factual, but you pretty much sound like a script from MSNBC.

I had a brief discussion of politics with an older family member last nite. This was like listening to a Fox script.

The right's more crazy, and less factual. But you're both full of shit, and this place is uniquely full of shit because you actually think you've insight and knowledge. You don't.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

You really are full of yourself. Listen up: You possess no unique insight into anything. You lack the ability to listen to an argument without assigning your preconceived notion of what "tribe" that person falls into. You are worse than everyone on this board because you truly think you have the ability to hear the bullshit on both sides.

What you have never understood is that pretty much everyone on this board, no matter what the issue, has taken into account all perspectives and dismissed the ones they have found unconvincing. In many cases, that determination lines up with one side or the other. And here's the rub: That is not evidence of people plugging their ears and following along blindly with MSNBC or whatever.

There is overwhelming evidence of people here debating what the facts mean on every single issue. You ignore it all because you have assigned us all to a tribe in your mentally deficient mind. Sure, I lean left. But that is because (and I've said this many times) on every single issue, I believe the right is completely wrong. Hell, I often think the left is wrong. But they are almost always less wrong than the right.

You can name any issue at all and I will tell you where I stand on it. The result of my analysis is not a product of me choosing to stand with Democrats on all issues because they're Democrats and I'm a Democrat, so I must agree with them on everything. You repeat this tired, lame, bullshit ad nauseum.

The reason why we are more split than ever is because the right is taking waaaaaaay more extreme stances on every single possible issue. And so many on the right are completely resistant to facts and driven (partly? a lot? mostly?) by pure hatred.

So, you can keep acting like you're something special. But you really should realize that you're not. You're fucking delusional.

TM

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I don't have special insight. I know that, which is why I'm skeptical. You, OTOH, are not skeptical. You take strong positions (as do many others here) which are dependably left. Then, when someone pokes a hole in one, you explode.

I don't think I have a unique ability to hear the bullshit on both sides. But do I think I'm looking for it a lot more than you are? Yes. I don't have a horse in the game except sowing skepticism. (I can't call myself right or left and don't like either party.)

On what single issue do you agree with the right?

I can name a number in which I'm left:

Pro-choice
Pro-immigration
Pro-free trade (it's strange to call this left, but I guess now it is)
Pro-prison/justice reform

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

The thing is, MSNBC actually does care about facts, and they have an extended history of hiring "refugees" who just couldn't take Fox any more as well as former Republican officials. It's a very different model than Fox.

I know you love nothing other than to cry "both sides and I'm neither"....

Oh, shit, why am I bothering. Go, take another hit of whatever you're on, enjoy.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

The tribalization you describe is very real, but you are totally missing what is driving it.The country has a mainstream and a right wing. The mainstream is not "tribalized." Indeed, most people don't really care about politics or identify with a "tribe." Conservatives do and do -- they are the ones who are tribalized. This has been going on for years. Conservatives feel underrepresented, not without some basis, by mainstream institutions, so they have set up their own conservative counterparts (Liberty University instead of the Ivy League, the Washington Times instead of the NYT and WaPo, FOX News instead of CNN, the Federalist Society instead of the ABA, etc.). When conservatives gravitate towards the latter, the vacuum moves the former to the left, which causes the former to engage in various kinds of affirmative action to keep conservatives voices and audiences. It doesn't really work. Nevertheless, mainstream organizations are not tribalized in the way that conservative alternatives are. The tribalization is driven by conservative grievance.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I recall how skeptical you were of Sam Harris's decision to invite Charles Murray to discuss censorship. It's just like the skepticism you show when people attack unions or environmental regulation, or when conservatives say tax cuts will create jobs.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

There's the magic in your skewed view of yourself. You think you're continually poking holes. Maybe sometimes you are. But most of time you're just stating the opposite position as if that in and of itself is somehow meaningful.

Again, sowing skepticism isn't what you think it is. Poking holes in both sides is meaningless, especially because you really don't stand for fucking anything (other than your wallet, which is the only consistent position on policy I've seen you take).

I have no true belief in the Democratic Party or any particular politician. I go with the ones who espouse my views the most. It's a really very simple proposition. If I think 100% of what Donald Trump says is complete horseshit, that doesn't mean I am incapable of hearing the bullshit Hillary may be spewing. It does mean that I will vote for Hillary. You swooping in and pointing out that they both are full of shit does not make you something special.

Good question. But surely you understand that if I say absolutely none, it's not because I am a brainwashed partisan who just follows whatever Democrats say. It's because I have thought about each issue and disagree with the opinions on the right.

And what does it say that I don't believe in everything Bernie believes in? Am I the Sebby of the left? Or am I just middle of the road on some issues?

What's funny about you is when I criticize the left--like I did when Hillary and Bill played those bullshit racist games with Obama--it doesn't mean a thing to you because you've already put me in a category that helps you with your tired ass tribal narrative. Obama's drone policy was bullshit. He was way too aggressive with immigration. None of that matters because I haven't agreed with Ted Cruz one time!

I am pro-free trade and believe that we should not purchase goods from countries that subsidize products in order to corner markets.
I am a capitalist, but I believe there absolutely have to be limits on how much someone should make.

Tell me which issues I should side with the right on. If I tell you why I don't, will you actually believe what I say or is it just more evidence that I am in my tribe and incapable of independent thought? That's why this is a stupid exercise.

But I'll tell you this much: The right too often welcomes racists with open arms (or at least doesn't denounce them). While this is a minor point on your long issues list, it is of vital importance to me because racism permeates every single aspect of politics. Hell, on almost every single policy position I can think of, the only time the right seems to care about race (read: protected classes) is when a white person might have been impacted by a policy.*

Again, does that mean that I always agree with Democrats when it comes to race? Absolutely not. Are they almost always better than Republicans when it comes to actual policy? Hell yes.

TM

*Of course this is all you'll hear from this post, but I don't really care.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

MSNBC does care about facts more than Fox. I would never challenge that.

But just like Fox, it selectively presents and emphasizes certain facts over others. And like Fox, but not as dishonestly, it crafts a subtle narrative of the facts.

For instance, you'll never hear about racism driving Trump voters on Fox. It'll all be economic insecurity. On MSBC, you'll hear about economic insecurity driving Trump voters, but it'll be given short shrift, and racism will be focused on as though it were 90% of what drove Trump voters. It's subtle but insidious pushing of a certain narrative.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Sebby, tell me how good the bread is on that shit sandwich!

In the past, there were lots of issues here and there where some of my conservative friends and I might agree. There were first amendment issues, foreign policy issues, trade issues... lots of stuff. We could have done an immigration deal with George Bush, it was just the hard right people who blocked it. Ted Kennedy actually did do an education deal with him.

In Trump's America, if I found myself agreeing with anything one of the Trumpsters (and that means most of the Republican Party and virtually all of Fox New) put forth, I am immediately skeptical. One big problem is they rarely hold a sincere opinion, they are more about asserting and extending their control than about workable policies.

So it's all a shit sandwich, and their bread is pretty thin.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I'm hugely skeptical of attacks on environmental regulation. I also have expressed the view that unions are an economic positive (and that labor and capital are arbitrary distinctions) endless times.

And where have I advocated trickle down economics? The tax cuts were stupid. I said exactly as much.

You've a selective memory.

(You're also notably silent when my criticisms match yours. But when they don't, I'm suborning racism and Islamaphobia.)

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

No one with a brain should be watching any cable news, or even any TV news.

That said, out in the "print" media, you absolutely 100% saw a ton of left-leaning writing about the role of economic insecurity. Yeah, anyone who has looked closely has concluded that it wasn't about economic insecurity, or, at bare factual minimum, the two things correlated really strongly.

But that's wholly different than what happens in the right wing medium bubble, where there's no discussion at all.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I'm old enough to remember you being a big advocate of "starve the beast."

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Good to see you man up and admit it.

Now let's talk about your 2016 vote again...

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Oat milk is not milk.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

It is. How else do you test a position's credibility?

It's true I cannot get what I want from either party. But again, weakness in positions should be exposed.

I don't think you're brainwashed. But when someone cites a person like Harris on the issue of censorship on controversial issues, and the reaction is a knee jerk "Harris is fucking racist!," without even considering what Harris said, am I wrong to sense some tribalism? GGG and Adder have taken the position Harris is invalid on all things, without even considering the conversation.

And when I criticize the right, it's all good. But when I criticize the left, I'm in bed with the alt right! (Not your criticism, but Adder's.)

I don't think you have an obligation to side with any. I only think you have an obligation not to pre-judge. The standard on assessing Trump voters is not, "They're all racists except the extent someone proves some of them are not."

I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this. I agree with it. 2?

Forget parties for a moment. This isn't really about parties at all. It's about bias. When someone pokes a hole in a position I hold, I don't immediately call the person a racist or a xenophobe or alt-right. Nor do you (this isn't really directed to you).

I grasp that you're annoyed that I think you've tribal sensibilities. I unfairly failed to distinguish you from those who knee jerked to use or "racist!" or "alt right!" (I should probably have this battle exclusively with GGG and Adder, who engage in that stuff.)

In this regard, I have generalized inaccurately, and lazily. I'll try to explicitly carve you out of this category as much as possible. But I can't drop the "tribal" criticism in regard to anyone who reflexively hurls an insult in response to skepticism. There's a certain "don't dare question what I believe" ring to that.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

How is that trickle down economics?

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I don't watch cable news as a rule, but have you been in any waiting room lately? Watched any news stories online?

For the record, the only station I watch when there's some serious story to be seen is CNN.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

For the kids out there, this was once called "editing."

I'm not sure why you think selection and narrative are so damning. There are an awful lot of facts out there, so selection is a fact of human life. The same is true with narrative. When the news on the radio at the top of the hour tells you that the Dow is up 7, you're experiencing selection and narrative.