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-   -   Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=880)

sebastian_dangerfield 06-21-2017 11:26 PM

Re: More fault lines
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 508420)
this is a blog post. it really says little. other than maybe showing what you read to inform your word view?

This reply says It Worked.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-22-2017 12:38 AM

Re: More fault lines
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 508421)
This reply says It Worked.

What the antitrust problem with Amazon?

Tyrone Slothrop 06-22-2017 09:20 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
http://www.theroot.com/that-white-bo...-po-1796294201

sebastian_dangerfield 06-22-2017 10:49 AM

Re: More fault lines
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 508422)
What the antitrust problem with Amazon?

The better question might be, what's antitrust law's problem with Amazon? http://www.yalelawjournal.org/note/a...itrust-paradox

Adder 06-22-2017 10:52 AM

Re: You've got no love for the underdog/That's why you will not survive...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 508416)
National Review article (David French) on the Castile verdict. The dashcam video is just plain disturbing.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...rriage-justice

Some on the right get it, apparently.

The 74 Seconds treatment of the video was pretty good. In addition to talking to a former MPD trainer who says Yanez failed completely - not shocking - it goes through the audio of Yanez's very first explanation of what happened. Between him saying he didn't know where the gun was and that Castile's grip looked wider than a wallet, I don't know how he could credibly testify that he saw a gun. He heard "gun" and then assumed it's presence in Castile's hand.

Adder 06-22-2017 10:55 AM

Re: More fault lines
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 508424)
The better question might be, what's antitrust law's problem with Amazon? http://www.yalelawjournal.org/note/a...itrust-paradox

I suppose I need to read that, but for now just let me say that buying a specialty retailer doesn't seem like it makes much difference to Amazon's role in retail markets.

ETA: Btw, my favorite lefty "antitrust" freakout over the deal is "Amazon's going to get 451 locations they can use as distribution centers."

Because, right, the expensive real estate that Whole Foods uses for super fancy and expensive grocery stores is perfectly suited to use as a logistics hub and can totally handle hundreds of trucks coming and going every day and Amazon certainly couldn't comparable industrial space for way cheaper than it's paying for Whole Foods.

EATA: Not sure I can finish that article. She's wrong a lot. What she describes as narrowing is actually having to articulate the actual harm. Vertical theories are certainly still viable, just rare, as they should be because the harm is rare. Economies of scale and scope are absolutely barriers to entry under the "Chicago School." Market power is, in fact, often fleeting.

EATA: I really could not care less about the original intent behind 100 year old statutes. Indeed, much of the what motivated the Sherman, Clayton and Robinson-Patman was wrong.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-22-2017 11:04 AM

Re: More fault lines
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 508424)
The better question might be, what's antitrust law's problem with Amazon? http://www.yalelawjournal.org/note/a...itrust-paradox

It shouldn't surprise you that I'm familiar with that article. Who ought to be suing Amazon, and for what? Or do the laws need to be changed, and if so how?

Tyrone Slothrop 06-22-2017 11:08 AM

Re: More fault lines
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 508426)
I suppose I need to read that, but for now just let me say that buying a specialty retailer doesn't seem like it makes much difference to Amazon's role in retail markets.

My son told me at 9:30 last night that he needed an external hard drive to download photos because he had filled his laptop. I got on Amazon and ordered a Seagate drive which they will deliver, at no extra charge because I'm a Prime member, today. Amazon is not monopolizing the market for external drives. There are many other places where I could buy that drive. Nor are they monopolizing the provision of next-day delivery services. Other companies could build that if they want to. As a consumer, I think it's awesome that Amazon will sell me what I want so quickly and conveniently. So what's the argument that markets are not working well?

Adder 06-22-2017 11:20 AM

Re: More fault lines
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 508428)
My son told me at 9:30 last night that he needed an external hard drive to download photos because he had filled his laptop. I got on Amazon and ordered a Seagate drive which they will deliver, at no extra charge because I'm a Prime member, today. Amazon is not monopolizing the market for external drives. There are many other places where I could buy that drive. Nor are they monopolizing the provision of next-day delivery services. Other companies could build that if they want to. As a consumer, I think it's awesome that Amazon will sell me what I want so quickly and conveniently. So what's the argument that markets are not working well?

You gotta stop focusing on consumers, man. What about "the health of markets as a whole?"

I mean, how is the higher-cost, lower-service incumbent electronics retailer going to survive? And what's going to happen once it's gone?

But sarcasm aside, not unlike Walmart, I could see potential monopsony issues in theory, but most of what people complain about for both retailers is competition on the merits. It's supposed to be entirely legal to build a monopoly that way.

Nonetheless, get big and successful enough and you're eventually going to get into some antitrust trouble. As usual, I'd expect it from the EU first, but the US agencies will probably come up with a theory right about the time Amazon's being overtaken by whatever's next.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-22-2017 11:29 AM

Re: More fault lines
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 508429)
You gotta stop focusing on consumers, man. What about "the health of markets as a whole?"

I mean, how is the higher-cost, lower-service incumbent electronics retailer going to survive? And what's going to happen once it's gone?

But sarcasm aside, not unlike Walmart, I could see potential monopsony issues in theory, but most of what people complain about for both retailers is competition on the merits. It's supposed to be entirely legal to build a monopoly that way.

Nonetheless, get big and successful enough and you're eventually going to get into some antitrust trouble. As usual, I'd expect it from the EU first, but the US agencies will probably come up with a theory right about the time Amazon's being overtaken by whatever's next.

E-commerce is killing traditional retail, because it's just not efficient to have to go to store to buy many things. This will cause a lot of dislocation.

sebastian_dangerfield 06-22-2017 12:06 PM

Re: More fault lines
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 508427)
It shouldn't surprise you that I'm familiar with that article. Who ought to be suing Amazon, and for what? Or do the laws need to be changed, and if so how?

Nobody. That's the point.

The sole effective change would be to bar predatory pricing of the kind in which Amazon engages. I'm not even remotely close to qualified to comment on the acceptable breadth of antitrust law, but that sounds like outlawing loss leading as a business practice. That seems extreme.

I only offered the article because you asked the question. I was more interested in the question of how people like Bezos view the world (the bit in the editorial I posted earlier, where the author described tech oligarchs as believing they were entitled to outsize influence, as they were emerging as masters, with superfluous labor serfs below).

Hank Chinaski 06-22-2017 12:32 PM

Re: More fault lines
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 508428)
My son told me at 9:30 last night that he needed an external hard drive to download photos because he had filled his laptop. I got on Amazon and ordered a Seagate drive which they will deliver, at no extra charge because I'm a Prime member, today. Amazon is not monopolizing the market for external drives. There are many other places where I could buy that drive. Nor are they monopolizing the provision of next-day delivery services. Other companies could build that if they want to. As a consumer, I think it's awesome that Amazon will sell me what I want so quickly and conveniently. So what's the argument that markets are not working well?

The evil thing is it sells infringing stuff from whomever, but insulates itself from infringement suits.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-22-2017 01:22 PM

Re: More fault lines
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 508431)
Nobody. That's the point.

The sole effective change would be to bar predatory pricing of the kind in which Amazon engages. I'm not even remotely close to qualified to comment on the acceptable breadth of antitrust law, but that sounds like outlawing loss leading as a business practice. That seems extreme.

I only offered the article because you asked the question. I was more interested in the question of how people like Bezos view the world (the bit in the editorial I posted earlier, where the author described tech oligarchs as believing they were entitled to outsize influence, as they were emerging as masters, with superfluous labor serfs below).

If you want to figure out how Bezos views the world, reading stuff he wrote would be a better place to start.

I don't think Amazon engages in predatory pricing. To the contrary, Amazon often offers pricing that is no better than the competition, but gets business from consumers who like the convenience, who can't be bothered to shop around, or who think it's too déclassé to shop at eBay or Walmart. What Amazon does ruthlessly is try to reduce its costs, and keep its margins low. That's hard for traditional retailers to compete with.

Adder 06-22-2017 02:03 PM

Re: More fault lines
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 508431)
The sole effective change would be to bar predatory pricing of the kind in which Amazon engages.

One thing she didn't talk about - for some reason - is the types of predatory price cases that have actually been viable post Brooke Group, which are in industries characterized with high fixed costs as a barrier to entry and very low marginal costs - basically, airlines - where recoupment actually sounds plausible.

Of course, that's not at all Amazon.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-22-2017 02:24 PM

Re: More fault lines
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 508434)
One thing she didn't talk about - for some reason - is the types of predatory price cases that have actually been viable post Brooke Group, which are in industries characterized with high fixed costs as a barrier to entry and very low marginal costs - basically, airlines - where recoupment actually sounds plausible.

Of course, that's not at all Amazon.

Matt Yglesias's take from four+ years ago still holds up pretty well:

Quote:

Amazon, as best I can tell, is a charitable organization being run by elements of the investment community for the benefit of consumers. The shareholders put up the equity, and instead of owning a claim on a steady stream of fat profits, they get a claim on a mighty engine of consumer surplus. Amazon sells things to people at prices that seem impossible because it actually is impossible to make money that way. And the competitive pressure of needing to square off against Amazon cuts profit margins at other companies, thus benefiting people who don't even buy anything from Amazon.

It's a truly remarkable American success story. But if you own a competing firm, you should be terrified. Competition is always scary, but competition against a juggernaut that seems to have permission from its shareholders to not turn any profits is really frightening.


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