Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

I'll go out on a limb and admit it. I don't think Ty will now, but eventually he will redeem himself.

A small fragment.......
 

2. Interesting that the endowment comes from the Creator. Intelligent design indeed.

Just a small request.......
 

If this board doesn't pick up in quality right quick, I will start spending time with Tucker Max.

Just a small request.......
 

I more or less agree, although put Hillary and her ideological pals Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Marx and the RedChinese on the list of people i don't want to spend an eternity with.

Just a small request.......
 

To be honest I have already begun my permanent and exclusive move to limiting my cyber-presence to the DU and Tucker Max. The only reason I still post here is because hillary.org shut down its message boards to focus its energy on her 08 Pres run and that freed up a half hour of my day.

Paging Spanky
 

or another pro-free market, anti-government, economic and fiscal conservative Republican.

Can one of you please explain why, when the government is suffering record deficits and oil companies are enjoying record profits, scores of Repubs lined up to give federal subsidies to oil companies to build refineries?



Oh, yes, I know -- energy crisis and all that. But shouldn't the market take care of getting refineries built?

Paging Spanky
 

Yes.

I disagree with subsidies to the private sector of any kind, including tax incentives that favour one industry over another, whether in the corporate, individual or death part of the tax code. I also disagree with pork politics whether practised by the Reps or demos. The only defence of it that I will make is that since we live in a world of government subsidies, market distorting tax incentives and pork, the oil industry should not be singled out as the one major economically crucial industry to be denied.

I have a close personal friend involved in making solar power more widely available and efficient for the masses to use for home energy needs. I pray to the babyjesuschristsuperstar that his company flourishes (I also wouldn't mind some family and friends shares in the IPO).

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Of course values compete. Let's look at a much simler example than sexual indentity.

Presumably, we would be hard pressed to find someone who didn't agree that it is generally wrong to kill someone. Penske argued that killing is wrong in an absolute sense. And yet, both you and he are on record as supporting the war in Iraq.

How can killing be an absolute wrong when killing in war is acceptable? There are numerous other examples: self-defense, defense of others, abortion to save the life of the mother (or, conversely, prohibiting abortion to save the life of hte mother).

Does a universal moral code say that it is wrong to kill? How can the code deal with this simple paradox?

It's not ALL relative
 

hindus worship cows. See if Taxwonk is willing to give up brisket.

It's not ALL relative
 

Exactly. I don't eat cow out of respect for my hindu friends. I also skip the pork out of respect for my jewish friends. I am humane multi-culturalist like that.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

I didn't say that rights, law or mores come from a desire for people to get along. I am saying that laws, rights, mores, etc. must be balanced in order for people to survive.

I believe that female circumcision, if it is done involuntarily, is wrong. It violates the principal (the more, if you will) that people should be free from unwanted invasions upon their person.

The same can be said of cultural customs of casting wives, servants, etc. in the funeral pyre of a dead male. (Interestingly, these customs tend only to be applied to the upper stratum of a culture.) This custom violates the more that it is wrong to take a human life.

One could say that these are examples of actions that violate an absolute principal. However, how can we take action to prevent these violations of the principal if it is absolutely wrong to violate another's freedom of action or to take another's life?

It's not ALL relative
 

Assume you had sex with girls. would you give up cunnilingus out of respect for bold & brazen's ex-husband?

It's not ALL relative
 

No. And what's more, relativism doesn't necessarily say that all mores, rights and wrongs are not absolute. Relativism can also posit that humans are incapable of perceiving and acting with absolutes. The best they can hope to achieve is to work out some approximation. Consider Plato's allegory of the cave. Or, once again, consider the paradox inherent in acknowledging the sanctity of human life but also conceding that it is sometimes necessary to kill.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

And yet you are a rabid supporter of CAFTA, notwithstanding that you know it will have the effect of forcing many people, in the US and outside of it, to live a life in which they are tied to a subsistence level of existence, with no hope of improving their station, and powerless to protest or complain, for fear that they will lose the meager resources they have. Or does this just mean that you have not yet come to understand that freedom requires access to opportunity? If people are tied to a subsistence level, without opportunity, aren't they really nothing more than slaves?

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Lovely rhetoric, but didn't we then go gladly into war, killing in order to secure these "inalienable" rights?

Note that I don't oppose the principals you espouse. I'm simply arguing that we have never in the entire history of humanity lived by them. Therefore, since society cannot be based upon these absolutes and ideals, human interaction is by necessity a matter of finding the relative balance between competing rights.

It's not ALL relative
 

Yes and no, my abstinence would be out of sympathy for the men who have sexxed Fringey.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

I never said killing was an absolute wrong. The only people that I know that have ever proposed something like this are pacifists and liberals - the same people that believe in moral relativism.

It is wrong to intentional kill innocent people. It is wrong to not kill someone if your choice is either killing them or letting them kill innocent people.

I think killing in certain circumstances is wrong, but in certain cirumstances is a moral imperative.

You are confusing absolute with simple, and are confusing relative with complex. The rules may be complex but they are absolute. Our legal system may getting more complicated all the time but it is not getting more relative. The laws in our legal system our absolute and not relative no matter how complicated they get.

When you say morals are relative you are saying that in certain circumstances it is OK to kill innocent people. Or that in some cutures it is OK to kill innocent people and not in others. Relative meams that morality can change with the circumstances. Absolute means that they do not.

Justs like our laws apply equally to all men and women all the time so does the universal moral code.

It's not ALL relative
 

thank you. that's thoughtful, but not necessary.

The ringing in my ears went away a few months afterwards. the doc said it wasn't a concussion.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

This isn't politics, it's a philosophical debate. And I haven't destroyed anything. I've let your words speak for themselves.

Go back and look at the record, Penske. I have simply repeated your answers to my questions, and asked you to reconcile inconsistencies in what you said. You were the one who time and time again tried to throw the debate off track by posting political slogans and attacking the Democratic party.

Talk to me when you have answers and the balls to deal with me as a person instead of ranting about some ill-defined group of people you label the "enemy." I tire of your empty sloganeering.

Just a small request.......
 

Quality also rests in your hands, Hank. I've been trying to elevate the discourse all week. Care to join me?

p.s. the Members' Boobies Thread now has butts, too.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Perhaps you lack the moral clarity of vision to discern the enemy when he or she has trojaned horsed themselves into your living room. Worse yet your lack of conviction to the 2nd Amendment will just imbolden their aggression against your natural rights. The babyjesi and I weep for that.

Just a small request.......
 

And this is not PoPD? Hank is one of the most consistent contributors to this board, why attack his constructive criticism? Have you ever read TuckerMax? Regardless of your elevation, Hank makes a good point.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

You don't really believe this. Many of our rights don't help us survive. In fact many of our rights allow us to diminish the lenght of our lives.

This has nothing to do with survival. And why should people be free from unwanted invasions upon their person? If you are forcing someone to take an antibiotic shot that will save their lives then such an invasion upon their person will help them survive.

What can be said about it? In a world of moral relativism who are you to critisize such practices? And if you do what is your rationalization for critisizing them?

This only poses a problem for people that have not fully thought through their moral framework. Many liberals and pacifists say it is absolutely wrong to kill anyone. If you believe that it is absolutely wrong to kill someone under any circumstances you are also a moral absolutist. I think this is an immoral position to take and actually violates the universal moral code.

Ghandi was a moral absolutist that believed in a universal moral code. I think his code is and was well intentioned, but improperly conceived and applied and leads to great evil.

I also believe that moral relativism leads to great evil. If morals change with the circumstance and the culture then there really aren't morals are there. In a moral relativist world you can not critisize the Germans for killing the Jews.

Only if you believe in moral absolutes and a higher law can you critisize the genocide of the jews. In Hitler's mind the Genocide was the moral thing to do, and he changed the laws to make it legal. He also argued that the Genocide was a necessary good for the German culture and German people. Many people that were involved in it thought it was the right thing to do. Only something so monstrous could be pulled of by people thinking they were doing the "right thing".

It is only in a culture that does not believe in universal human rights (and thereby a universal moral code) that such atrocities can occure. Both Hitler and Stalin believed that the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few". With social engineering it is OK to sacrifice the rights of peopel to benefit the society as a whole. However, if you believe in a universal moral code, and believe like Jefferson that these rights come from our creator then you can't go around killing large number of people (infringing on their rights) because it benefits the majority of the people.

Most peole that I know that believe in a universal moral code believe that Genocide (or the intentional mass killing of innocnets) is one of the worst violations of the code and it is never OK under any circumstances.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Look up the definition of absolute and then look up the definition of relative, Spank.

The pro-life movement rests largely upon the backs of people who base their opposition to abortion upon their belief that life begins at conception and all life is sacred. Even if I were to accept your modification that killing itself is not an absolute wrong, and I do, obviously, isn't "innocent" itself a relative term?

When we shell a village in Iraq, even if we take very effort to minimize collateral damage, we both know that innocent people will die. How is that not a choice that our life isn't worth more than theirs?

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Don't get arrogant and ignorant on me.. Wonk. I already explained to you how I understood the definition and you did not. It is clear you are still confusing absolute with simple and relative with complicated. If I am a moral absolutist I do NOT have to believe that killing is either wrong or right in all circumstances. I can believe in an absolute moral code and believe killing is OK under certain circumstances in not OK in other. Just like I can believe in an absolute legal code where killing is legal in certain circumstances and not legal in others.

Many of the pro-life people do not beleive all life is sacred. In fact most don't. But they believe that it is wrong to kill innocent life. If a zygote is a life form then is it not also innocent? If you believe that life begins at conception, and you believe that it is wrong to kill an innocent life, then you need to be against abortion.

Killing under certain circumstances is an absolute wrong and under other circumstances is an absolute right (or moral imperative). Most of them time intentionally killing an innocent life is wrong. Actually that has to be a inncent human life. But innocent is not a relative term. You just need to define it. In addition, there are exceptions when killing an innocent life is OK. Although I doubt there are very few when intentionally killing an innocent life is OK. However, if a plane full if innocent civilians has been highjacked and the plane is heading for one of the towers of the world trade center. I think it is OK to shoot it down and kill everyone on board.

If you want to get into a discussion about right and wrong OK. But if you are a moral relativist this discussion is fruitless. We both have to agree that there is such a thing as right and wrong. And that right and wrong apply universally. If you are a moral relativist then we have to acknowledge that rights and wrongs can change from culture to culture and time to time. Right now by initiated this discussion you are assuming there is a universal moral code and we should debate what it includes.

In the example you just cited we are not choosing that our life is more important than the innocent Iraqi villager. We are deciding that it is in the best interest of Iraq that these villages are cleared of insurgents. If the insurgents are not defeated no one in Iraq is going to have any rights. So it is in the interest of promoting the universal moral code (the idea of promoting justice) that we shell these villages.

Paging Spanky
 

I have no probelm hanging out with Milton Friedman, Arthur laffer, Halyek and all the scholars from the Hoover, Heritage and Enterprize institutions and foundations for the rest of my life. I would much prefer to hang out with them than Hugo Chavez, Tom Daschel, Dick Gephart and that former Klansmen Penske is obsessed with.

The worst punishment for me would have to be to spend an eternity in a room with Noam Chomsky, Tom Hayden, Jane Fonda, Sean Penn and that midget that served as Bill Clinton's labor secretary.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

You hit the nail on the head. The problem is the modern day liberal wants to ignore the universal moral code. They want a sliding scale of morality, forever fluid to explain away and justify their transgressions and lapses, with no responsibility being the ultimate end to acheive. It explains how they can admit perjury is wrong and illegal but excuse the Cheif Executive Officer of the country's perjury because it is "just about sex".

Sad. I shudder for the children of our nation if the liberals and their pals in the MSM succeed in replacing the the universal moral code with their morally relativistic amorality.

Paging Spanky
 

2. That latter crowd may be worse that a 1000 Hillarys.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Provided someone doesn't also do harm to anyone else, he/she should have the right to diminish his/her lifespan

Either we are endowed with an unalienable right to liberty or we aren't Spanky. You can't have it both ways. Are you really suggesting the state whould be able to medicate someone against their will?

The rest of this is ridiculous. I have never suggested that anyone could defend genocide. If you want to know what I believe, ask me. Don't throw up straw men, especially ones as ridiculous as this one.

I believe that Jefferson's statement is true: "All men are created equal and they are endowed by their creator with certain inaliable right, among these being life liberty and the pursuite of happiness."

Unlike Jefferson himself, I believe this rule applies to all human beings on the planet earth. Including Arabs.

So when we are trying to help a country set up a government that will protect these rights, I believe that we are helping promote justice around the world. Arabs deserver these rights just as much as we do, and they are entitled to these rights just as much as we do.

When some says you are trying to impose western values on these countries, I disagree. I think we are trying to impose universal values on these countries. People said it was naive to try and impose these values on the Japanese and Koreans. But if worked there because these values are not western they are universal.

A moral relativist might say that in Arab countrys these rights are not part of their culture so it is both arrogant and naive to think that we can impose a system to protect these rights. Hello Ty.

I believe these rights are universal and apply to all cultures and people. It is interesting though when you discuss something like female circumscission how all of a sudden liberals discover universal rights and don't thin it is arrogant to impose such a right on different cultures.

What I also find hypocritical is when we are critisized for trying to impose these rights on another country, but when we do, and we don't impose 100% of these rights for practical reason - in other words choosing 95% instead of Zero (like not giving women equal rights with men so we can get a constitution passed that protects most of these rights) then we are critisized for not insisting on 100% of these rights. If it is arrogant and naive to impose our system and values on these countrys, then isn't it better that we only impose on 95% of our values instead of a %100.

Either morals or rights are universal, and we should try and spread them, or they are not, and we should not blink an eye when females are circumsized in foreigh countrys or widows are thrown on funeral pyres.

Telling these countrys to stop mutilating their young women and killing widows is either an arrogant and naive attempt to impose our western values on these countrys or cultures or an attempt to promote an absolute universal code. You can't have it both ways folks.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

The state already does with certain vaccines. Also, it was the state that murdered Terri Schiavo, sort of by reverse medication. What group perpetuated that act?

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

rel·a·tiv·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rl-t-vzm)
n. Philosophy
A theory, especially in ethics or aesthetics, that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them.

ab·so·lut·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bs-ltzm)
n.

A political theory holding that all power should be vested in one ruler or other authority.
A form of government in which all power is vested in a single ruler or other authority.
An absolute doctrine, principle, or standard.

I think your definitionis the last one.

Okay, I can accept your position that you can believe in an absolute moral code and still believe killing is okay under some circumstances and not in others. Who gets to decide when it is okay to kill and when it isn't? What basis is to be used in deciding?

In the first place, I don't know that life begins at conception. I don't know that it doesn't, but I haven't been persuaded that it does. But, assuming for the moment the zygote is a life form, then why is it by definition innocent? What if carrying it to term will kill the mother? What if the burden of caring for the child is beyond the mother's economic, emotional, and other resources?

You're being inconsistent here. First you claim that it is never acceptable to kill an innocent person. Then you claim that sometimes it is. This is relativism.


I think this is absolutely wrong.

But what about the innocents? On what basis are we to decide that it is okay to sacrifice their lives? I guess it's a question of which is relatively the greater good for the community at large?

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

And in what cultures and in what circumstances do we have these rights.


You really are slow aren't you. I was pointing out that not all rules are for survival You were the one who said that. I am not suggesting anything. You at one point said all rules are for survival and then said that it was wrong to violate someone person against their will. Your two principals seem to contradict eachother.



I never said you did defend genocide. I am saying that you can't critize Genocide if you are a moral relativist. Moral relativists believe that differenct morals and rules are appropriate for different cultures and countrys. Some morals and rules works in some cultures and don't work in other cultures. Therefore it is wrong for one culture to impose its values on another culture.

That is why moral relativists think our invasion of Iraq is so heinous, because we are trying to impose "western values" on Iraq. I don't believe in western values. I think if values exist they are universal. I don't think morals are relative. I think they are universal to all cultures and countrys.

Genocide is an absolute wrong. A moral relativist would say that Genocide could be OK, it just depends on which culture you are talking about.

I think you are confusing moral relativsim with the fact that moral codes (and legal codes) have to be sophisticated and complicated. But that does not make them any less universal or important.

If you are a moral relativist and don't believe in a universal moral code, then you have to be open to the fact that Genocide might be appropriate to certain cultures at different times.

I agree. The spread of the UMC (Universal Moral Code) to all peoples of the wolrd, incl. but not limited tothe Islamists, is both a noble and humane pursuit. If people here can't get that I take heart that at the least W does. And he is in charge.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

That's murder. W had better be right about murder, its this type of thinking on the left that makes the demise of Roe the most imperative of all goals in the furtherance of humanity.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

In this country, right now. For example, the court decided that Terri Schiavo had a right to have her feeding tube removed, that being her choice as communicated through her ex-husband. A more simple example would be Less's right to drink himself to death.


You presume to tell me what I have to believe and call me arrogant? If you want to know what I believe, ask me, don't presume to tell me.

I previously posted defintions of both absolutism and relativism. I think your posts have established that you aren't really an absolutist. They have clearly established you have at best a misguided notion of relativism.

Had you bothered to ask me what I believe in, or where I stand on issues, you might have established that we agree on many specific policies and issues. Maybe we can have that conversation one of these days. Then Hank won't have to leave.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Why is abortion any more murder than prohibiting abortion to save the life of the mother?

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Translation: The democrat party entered into a conspiracy with the person who had the most to gain from her murder to kill her.

I hope no one here ever ends up in a temporary coma and living in a culture of death locale. Unless Hillary is here, then what comes around goes around. Hopefully.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Exactly. Truth and moral values are relative to the persons or groups holding them. I think truth and values are universal. You believe that truth and values are relative to the person or group holding them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by taxwonk

ab·so·lut·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bs-ltzm)
n.

A political theory holding that all power should be vested in one ruler or other authority.
A form of government in which all power is vested in a single ruler or other authority.
An absolute doctrine, principle, or standard.

I think your definitionis the last one.
You just pointed out that the definition of relative is "moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them.". So any discussion of morality depends on the group of people we are discussing. Killing widows may be wrong for one group of people but OK for another. So a shelling of innocent people in an Iraq village has to take in account what the local values and morals are. We need to see what is historically OK in Iraq and not impose our "western" or American values on the situation.




The common good can get you into trouble. However, this is a discussion that will turn on what is just. But when "what is just" is determined, I believe justice is the same for all men and women and that it is not "relative to the persons or groups holding them".

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

I have stated my position on that one here several times, but saving a mother's life does not fall into "the burden of caring for the child is beyond the mother's economic, emotional..... resources".

If being beyond economic or emotional resources is an acceptable standard then killing a 4 year old would be as justified and morally acceptable as killing a 4 month old unborn child.