Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Exactly, and that is the Creator's intelligent design.



2. It is that type of rationale that leads us toward the abortion on demand no responsibility hell that NARAL and NOW and there allies in the demo party so fervently desire. I made a decicion/did an act (a dirty deed if you will) and got pregnant, but if I have this baby then that Porsche Boxster and vacation home in Cabo will be out of the picture, better abort. Twisted. I will pray for the souls of those poor dead unborn lives tonight.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

You already told me what you believe. You said you are a moral relativist. And you have shown me a definition of what a moral relativist is. I am just showing you what the logical conclusion of your stated beliefs are. If you have a problem with your stated beliefs, I am sorry. But you are the one that said you subscribed to them.

I know exactly what moral relativsim is. At least I agree with your definition of it: A theory, especially in ethics or aesthetics, that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them.


This is what you said you believe: A theory, especially in ethics or aesthetics, that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them.

If truth or moral values are relative to the person holding them how can you critisize any actions until you understand their cultural background, beliefs etc. Following the Nazi's morality the final solution made perfect sense. The jews were an inferior race that was infecting the superior race and making it weak. The Jews needed to be exterminated for the health of the German population. Under their belief system, the Aryan race was superior, and its welfare was the only thing that mattered.

I don't have to care about any of this. All men are created equal and all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalieable rights. It does not matter if men are Jews, Arabs, Germans or Pygmies. Under the Universal Code the Genocide was a massive and abhorent violation and the slaughtering hundred of thousands of Nazis to stop it (and the slaughtering of even millions of innocents to stop the Genocide) was not only OK but a moral imperative.

I think you probably agree with me on this, but I think if you agree with me you are not really a moral relativist.

Just a small request.......
 

2. I think we've all been impressed how you've used logical constructs to show there are inconsistant positions across the body of Penske's posts.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

The courts and the people were trying to argue what the right thing to do here is. Our legal system has concluded that people, if their quality of life sucks, can let themselves die. That is just. I agree that that is Just. Many people in our society believe that people should not be allowed to commit suicide under any circumstances. I believe that is wrong. Some think under the moral code that one should not be able to ever control when they live or die. I disagree with them on what the universal moral code is. Both sides agree there is a universal moral code we just disagree on what it says.

On the subject of Jews....
 

Up until recently, I have generally believed that the existence of Jews had not only benefited the world, but has greatly benefited the United States. If you look at the contribution of Jews in this country, in medicine, the arts, science etc., I think it is clear our quality of life in this country would be greatly diminished if so many Jews had not immigrated here. I have always believed that the US has been really lucky that most Jews have chosen this country as the place to emigrate to. I also believe that the Jews in the Republican Party hold a critical role, because with out them, the party might be totally controlled by the Christian Conservatives. The Republican Jewish Coalition in California has contributed greatly to pushing the Republican Party in California towards a rational and sensible path.

However, recent information has come to light that has made me question the benefit of Jewish influence in our society. Although some of you have not admitted this yet, it is clear that I am the epicenter of the Universe.

When I was born, my father’s best friend (who happens to be a Jewish doctor) convinced my father that I should be circumcised. That from a hygienic stand point this was a good thing. However, I was reading an article that said that that circumcision not only does not provide any real health benefits, but that the victim of the act does not enjoy sex as much. In other words, because of the loss of the foreskin, circumcised males do not derive as much pleasure from sex as their uncircumcised brethren. !!!!!!!!!.

Now I am beginning to question the benefits of Jewish influence in this country. Any thoughts before I start organizing a pogrom?

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Sorry. Schiavo doesn't equal Less. The analog would be if Less is passed out at the bar and Paigow is telling the bartender that the last thing he said was he wants 5 shots poured down his throat.

On the subject of Jews....
 

ironically, the most prolific Jewish poster here, Taxwonk, was not able to be circumsized.

They hadn't invented microsurgery yet! Ha!

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

It is physically impossible for Less to drink himself to death. Less and I went to Mardi Gras a few years back and we stayed with a friend of mine from college. We concluded that Less was not human. He drank endless amounts of alcohol and never slept. After two days of trying to keep up with Less me and my college friend both ended up in the hospital, and Less kept "partying" right through fat tuesday.

Just a small request.......
 

2.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Sure, as long as the person to die has actually expressed the desire. In the Schiavo case the state and the husband conspired to impose their culturalist of death will on her. I know for me, if I was in a coma, the last two people I would want to decide my fate, absent my express verifiable expression related to the same, would be my wife and the state. The former has millions to gain by my demise and the latter has the tax revenue from the introduction of those millions into the economy. BIG CONFLICT OF INTEREST. Especially in my home state where the culture of death is the prevailing perversity and the statehouse was stolen by a Fraudoire.

Hank, if I end in a Schiavo like state, please direct the relevant authorities to this post before they can kill again.

On the subject of Jews....
 

My son is uncircumised. I hope to be able to live vicariously through him to get some insight into the benefits of that state, which was cruelly denied to me.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

I think on this point you differ from many of the people that were so upset about this case. I don't think Delay and friends really cared if she expressed a desire to die. From their perspective only God can decide if some one should die and therefore humans should do everything they can to protect and preserve life under all circumstances. Actually with Delay it is just innocent life (he is a pro-death penalty protestant) but with Catholics like Jeb Bush, it is all life, even non-innocent life.

I think these people have fallen prey to the slippery slope argument. They fear that if you let someone who is in intense pain to choose to die that this could lead to a culture of death and pretty soon you will have another holocaust. That is why you should not make decisions on what is just or unjust based on fear. I think everyone deep down believes that if someone lives everyday in intense pain, and there is no hope that the pain will ever stop, that they should be allowed to end their own life. I think peoples fear (like their fear of homosexuals) prevents them from seeing what is truly just and right in these circumstances.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

I am in agreement with pretty much everything you wrote. I respect where Jeb was coming from but it is not where I was coming from one. I am fine with assisted suicide if the assistee is making a conscous decision. I am fine with a living will that directs the plug or feeding tube to be pulled. I am not down with judicial interpetation of someone's wishes based on hearsay, even if it is the husband providing it. A spouse is not chattel. In the case, as W said, they should have erred on the side of life. Instead the state was complicit in murder.

What does the state say if the husband on his death were to say, "guess what, I lied. Suckers!". Err on the side of life, not in favour of a culture of death.

All that said, I have evolved to being against the death penalty. What happened in Illinois and elsewhere points to strongly that this is another area to "err", so to speak, on the side of life. Life imprisonment works for me......except for enemy combatants and treasoners, those filthy bastards aren;t worth the waste of time the due process considerations take.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Since you've invoked me in a quasi-legal request I have to be frank. If your wife has a conflict, so would I. Anything she has, I can have anytime I ask. Several. Times. A. Night.

Ask sidd. He's impotent.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

2. Thanks for getting my back on this.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

de nada mi amigo.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

what translation page do you use?

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

you're on the wrong track. Ms. Penske says the problem isn't what Mr. Penske does, it's what he doesn't do.

On the subject of Jews....
 

There has been some brain possesion software where you can step into another experience (almost exactly like Being John Malkovich- sans dumped on highway) developed in the last year. It's still beta test but maybe I can smuggle you somewhen the time cums (ha!). But the whole pyschological effect of being there for sonny's early experiences, we just don't know long term effects.

The uncertainty has really limited suggested uses. But given your existing abnormalities, I think the chances of you having any real additional harm are perhaps acceptable.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Yes, busted. BnB is her sock.

You have to love this.........
 

Californian yachties driven barking mad by sea lion siege
By Andrew Gumbel in Newport Beach, California
Published: 09 October 2005
In most Californian coastal resorts, residents would kill for a regular glimpse of sea lions frolicking in the surf and barking with joy. In San Francisco and Monterey, they are tourist attractions. But in the conservative yachting town of Newport Beach, south of Los Angeles, the residents want to kill the sea lions. All summer, the sea lions have been clustering around the yachting harbour, flopping on boats to sunbathe, vomiting and defecating wherever they please and barking so much some residents say they haven't had a decent night's sleep for months. A month ago, 18 sea lions piled on to a vintage yacht, built in 1910, and sank it, to the fury of the absentee owner.

The boat-owners have petitioned the Harbour Commission, and the Harbour Commission has petitioned the City Council, but to no avail; the animals have been under special government protection since they came close to extinction 30 years ago, and nobody is allowed to touch them.

So a state of siege has been established. Many yacht-owners have tried to block the sundecks of their boats with chairs and kayaks. Others have temporarily moved their boats to other harbours. A few of the more enterprising residents have equipped themselves with squirt guns (for the sea lions) and sleeping pills (for themselves). And they have come up with many cunning plans: attacking the beasts with rubber bullets or firecrackers, blasting high-pitched sounds from underwater speakers, building a fake killer whale - an underwater scarecrow if you will - or employing a harbour hand to go around the boats and bang them with a stick.

The problem is that these ploys do not work. One attempt to deport some of the animals to an island off Santa Barbara, more than 100 miles to the north, ended in failure: the beasts were back within a week.

An estimated 400,000 sea lions frolic along the Pacific coast of the US, barely a generation after fears for their extinction led to the protective law. In Seattle nine years ago, three sea lions threatening the steelhead trout which move down the city's "fish ladder" - an ingenious device to help the fish swim upstream - were actually sentenced to death. A national outcry over this ostensible act of brutality led to a reprieve, cheered on by then-Vice President Al Gore: the three animals were adopted by SeaWorld in Orlando.

In most Californian coastal resorts, residents would kill for a regular glimpse of sea lions frolicking in the surf and barking with joy. In San Francisco and Monterey, they are tourist attractions. But in the conservative yachting town of Newport Beach, south of Los Angeles, the residents want to kill the sea lions. All summer, the sea lions have been clustering around the yachting harbour, flopping on boats to sunbathe, vomiting and defecating wherever they please and barking so much some residents say they haven't had a decent night's sleep for months. A month ago, 18 sea lions piled on to a vintage yacht, built in 1910, and sank it, to the fury of the absentee owner.

The boat-owners have petitioned the Harbour Commission, and the Harbour Commission has petitioned the City Council, but to no avail; the animals have been under special government protection since they came close to extinction 30 years ago, and nobody is allowed to touch them.

So a state of siege has been established. Many yacht-owners have tried to block the sundecks of their boats with chairs and kayaks. Others have temporarily moved their boats to other harbours. A few of the more enterprising residents have equipped themselves with squirt guns (for the sea lions) and sleeping pills (for themselves). And they have come up with many cunning plans: attacking the beasts with rubber bullets or firecrackers, blasting high-pitched sounds from underwater speakers, building a fake killer whale - an underwater scarecrow if you will - or employing a harbour hand to go around the boats and bang them with a stick.
The problem is that these ploys do not work. One attempt to deport some of the animals to an island off Santa Barbara, more than 100 miles to the north, ended in failure: the beasts were back within a week.

An estimated 400,000 sea lions frolic along the Pacific coast of the US, barely a generation after fears for their extinction led to the protective law. In Seattle nine years ago, three sea lions threatening the steelhead trout which move down the city's "fish ladder" - an ingenious device to help the fish swim upstream - were actually sentenced to death. A national outcry over this ostensible act of brutality led to a reprieve, cheered on by then-Vice President Al Gore: the three animals were adopted by SeaWorld in Orlando.

A Question of Divine Inspiration
 

Wrongo.

The most fervent "followers" of the baby jesus in our modern American body politic seem to focus on the Old Testament (and perhaps Revelations) to the exclusion of the Gospels. The Bible is pretty clear that Christ was a socialist.

[Indeed, one of Penske's earlier sig lines alluded to this concept.]

Fortunately for all of us, he's a big tent kind of guy.

S_A_M

Nonetheless

Is This a Public Benefit?
 

Hell, yes, it is a public benefit. You ever been in RFK?

More so that a damn shopping mall.

S_A_M

A Question of Divine Inspiration
 

The comment that a rich man has the same chance of getting to heaven as a camel going through the eye of a needle is not the most Capitalist of statements I have ever heard.

Jesus was also not very big on money lenders or changers (banks). Not a very pro-capitalist way of thinking either.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

If you mean what you say here, I'm not sure what you think the term "moral relativism" means. I think that the lack of definition is hampering your conversation with Wonk -- though I'm really not sure why Wonk started this with Penske.

Your statement is not coherent. Moreover, think of the true pacifists you have known, (personnaly or though the media or history books) and consider whether you think they are actually moral relativists.

S_A_M

P.S. God told Bush to tell Clinton to tell me to say that.

A Question of Divine Inspiration
 

Wow. Good points. Maybe you're right!

But, spank, just in case sam is wrong, remind me to make a toast of blessed mead to Sam, once you and I are part of the heavenly multitudes.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Stalin most surely did not. (Not sure about Hitler.)

Look at actions, not words or abstract philosophies to which they purportedly subscribed.

S_A_M

On the subject of Jews....
 

You shoud thank him, nonetheless. Uncircumcised penises are just nasty looking.

S_A_M

[eta: Just doing my part to elevate the tone.]

A Question of Divine Inspiration
 

Don't overestimate his open armed tolerance in life with the judgment of his Dad after death. That is a moral relativistic liberal perversion.

Is This a Public Benefit?
 

More so than a shopping center, but that is a low standard. Pro-sports are a deplorable public benefit, akin to nothing more than a memorial park to fatslobcommierabblerouserdemofriend Michael Moore.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

PoPD. It was a hand off from someone else, like Begala handing off a project to Carville.

BS. The Cindy Sheehan/Soros/Moveon crowd didn't have the complaints about Clinton that they do of Bush.

On the subject of Jews....
 

And how much looking are you doing? Nttawwt.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

That has nothing to do with what I said.

Who thinks that Cindy Sheehan is a true pacifist, expressing a well-defined philosophy developed after significant moral reflection?

I don't know whether Soros is a pacifist, and there is no evidence that MoveOn.org is a pacifist organization. IIRC -- MoveOn was founded to develop a progressive movement to oppose Bush, not to end the war.

You surely know that opposition to The Bush administration and/or the War in Iraq does not equate to pacifism or, for that matter, moral relativism.

For once, cut the crap.

S_A_M

On the subject of Jews....
 

Doesn't take much. npi. nttawwt. fwiw.

A Question of Divine Inspiration
 

So, the Jews and Muslims have it right, then . . . Christ was just a prophet/holy man?

Or, is he truly the path to salvation? If you believe the latter, your argument doesn't work.

S_A_M

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Perhaps this definition is more closely aligned with what I mean by relativism:

Relativism

n : (philosophy) the philosophical doctrine that all criteria of judgment are relative to the individuals and situations involved

The source is Dictionary.com

I can't accept your philosophy.

In the first place, I think it's inconsistent to argue that a universal moral code is instinctual and that it comes from God. But setting that aside, if man's sense of right and wrong is instinctual, then it would not need to be learned, which has been a cornerstone of your argument all along.

Finally, man has consistently moved away from instinctual to learned behaviors. This is widely asserted to be what separates us from the other animals, our ability to learn and reason. If right and wfrong were isntincutal, then we would see a common acceptance of your universal moral code from the beginning. If anything, history would demonstrate a pattern of moving from behaviors that are more moral in the past to more decadent in the present, as our society moved from more primitive to more developed, or at least a consistent, higher morality from the beginning forward. I think we would agree that the opposite situation has in fact occurred.

While I agree that we have a general moral code that is more respectful of human rights and of human life than many other societies, we are faced with a paradox. How can we force our superior moral code on others without violating the very rights that we profess to be enforcing?

If we use military pressure to force those societies that practice savery to cease, are we enslaving them? If we invade Iraq to "bring democracy" to the oppressed Iraqis, is our forced conversion not undemocratic?

You cannot claim that all people everywhere have the same rights and are subject to the sme moral code and then break that code to force them to adopt it. That is why I am a relativist.

I agree that the regime in Iraq was evil and had to come down. I just don't accept that that was the true motiviation for our going in. I'm also very sceptical that Iraq was as great a catalyst in fomenting Islamist terrorism as it has become in the wake of our invasion.

Right cause, wrong reason.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Wonk has already defined moral relativism and I accepted his definition. For the upteenth time moral relativism is:

rel·a·tiv·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rl-t-vzm)
n. Philosophy
A theory, especially in ethics or aesthetics, that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them.



I already said that Ghandi was not a moral relativist.

However, when considering most of the pacifists that I know they think they are moral relativists. My sister is one of them. The same people that like to say that we should not impose "western values" on other people are the same people that seem to believe in nonviolence. The same people that think it is abhorent to try and impose our values in Iraq are the same people that freak out over Chinas treatment of Tibet.

Penske seems to get all the attention from the liberals. It is very difficult to get noticed around here.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

Are you kidding?
I am looking at actions. Stalin murdered millions of Russians to benefit Russia as a whole. Almost every action he took showed that he believed that anything was justifiable as long as it benefit the many (the state).

Hitler on the other hand that statement may not be entirely correct. He believed anything was OK as long as it benefitted the German people (that is not necessarily the same as the many). He planned to kill off all the Slavic people and they outnumbered the Germans.

Differing Concepts of Justice and Freedom
 

That's valid if life begins at conception. I don't accept that premise. Furthermore, there is a difference between a medical treatment to prevent an event from occurring and the act of killing a four year-old.

Affirmative homicide aside, we make choices between one life and another all the time in the allocation of scarce resources. Ask anyone on an organ donor list.

We also make economic allocation resource decisions that may affect human life on a daily basis. I show up at the hospital with angina and I'm rushed into the operating room for an angioplasty at once. The waitress at a place I eat a lot has heart trouble but she doesn't have health insurance. She waited six months to have her angioplasty done at County.

I generally don't favor abortion. But I also believe that each decision to abort or not is so particular to the mother and the fetus that the procedure is not susceptible to regulation by the state or federal government. So you could say that, while I'm generally anti-abortion, I'm also pro-choice.

By declaring itself pro-life, the anti-abortion movement hurts itself by coming off as hypocritical and by politicizing what is a social, not a governmental problem.

Just a small request.......
 

Now if only we could get Penske to see it and adjust his posting style accordingly, I think this would be a better place.