For Sidd
 

I'm not the original poster who mentioned it, but Here is the article you wanted

AmLaw article
 

Thanks. What tripe -- one would think that every post on this board is riddled with sex and profanity (instead of just recognizing that adults should have the freedom to intersperse their speech with four-letter words if they want to).

More to the point, if the GA boards were such an albatross around West's neck, why did they fight to keep them? Why did they delete posts about the new boards? One would think a journalist might ask these questions, but....

Serious topic
 

I'd like to get your thoughts on a recent tragedy that has been in our local papers. We live in a very hot climate--we've had over 100 degrees for over two weeks now. Every year, several kids die when they are inadvertently left in the car. We had our first of the year on Sunday, when a devoted father and hight school teacher changed his morning routine and forgot to drop the baby at the sitters. He was in the car all day and while he was still alive when found after eight hours, died that night.

So far the parents have not been prosecuted in these cases, but this case is being referred to the DA.

In my opinion, this man had no criminal intent. Prosecution and jail time would not send a message that we need to pay more attention to our kids. This man knew that already; it was a mistake. But, people are ready to stone him.

What do you think?

thoughts on tragedy
 

It is that time of year again, isn't it? sigh. this happens where I am as well. My feeling has always been that if the parent is not a total jackass, living with this will be more punishment than the law can dole out, and the publicity about such a horrific mistake is as good or better a deterrent than prosecution. Then once in a while someone who really is a total jackass, and not a devoted parent, etc etc, does something like this and every parental fiber of my being wants the book thrown at them. On balance, though, I think that parental mistakes, however awful, when not a part of chronic or deliberate neglect or abuse, should not be the provence of the criminal justice system.

(must say I've made plenty of mistakes, but that's one that gives me too many nightmares to ever make- besides, my kids are not quiet enough in the car).

Serious topic
 

I would want to take it case by case - obviously this was a mistake and in this case, I would want the law to show him some mercy, but this is an instance where the laws are undoubtedly inadequate.

We had one here a week or so ago, except it was the daycare that left the child in the van. I guess one question is should a daycare worker be held to a higher standard than a parent? Of course the daycare worker has a clear duty and is being paid specifically to care for the child (and perhaps should have had safeguards in place to prevent this) - if one is going to prosecute a caycare worker, should one should also prosecute a parent for the same acts, absent extenuating circumstances?

We had one last year where mom went out - got drunk (left kid in the car at night) and stumbled home leaving the baby to die in the heat the next day - obviously much worse than just forgetting, but the same result. I was hoping she'd be stoned.

We get a lot of these here (Texas) and each time I just think, what the hell - how did you not notice your infant/child missing for hours?

Along similar lines (keeping in mind the very pro-gun attitude down here), we had a 7yo child killed with her dad's gun while being watched by a babysitter. The father was a police officer and had several guns out within reach of his several children. That father is being prosecuted and arguably being held to a higher standard than others in the same situation becuase he obviously knew better. Many folks disagree with this, and I'm not sure jail time will serve to prevent him from committing the crime again - I'm sure the tragedy is enough to do that - but you can't exactly let him off can you? - but for his obvious disregard for safety, his child would still be here.

-TL

Serious topic
 

1) There are plenty of crimes that don't require intent. E.g., negligent homicide/manslaughter. I don't have a problem with jail time for someone so reckless as to leave their child in a hot car.

2) There is deterrent value in these prosecutions, because it heightens public awareness of the problem while showing that there are repurcusions. It also honors society's obligation to protect its children. Do I think such people are a risk to society? No. Are they a risk to their other children? Possibly. Does either of those mean there should be no prosecution? No, because then any person who killed on the basis solely of a relationship they no longer have could not be put in jail (e.g., what's the risk of letting O.J. go free--just don't let him remarry)

3) The reason, if any, to prosecute non-parents more harshly is because the deterrent of caring is less substantial. With parents, we presume they want their kids to live, so it must be a "horrible mistake" when one of these deaths occurs (which isn't necessarily a reasonable presumption, but I digress). With day-care workers, it's often "just a job" so they don't have the same deterrent. Criminal prosecution can make the deterrent adequate.

Serious topic
 

Does news about prosecution heighten awareness more than news about dead babies? If the avoidance of your child's death insufficient to prevent forgetfulness, why is fear of proseuction enough? If we outlaw paper cuts and stubbed toes, would we stop getting them?

The deterrence is only relevant for intentional crimes. A parent who leaves a child in a car to go shopping should be punished, even if the child is unhurt. That would send a message and theoretically lower the incidence of stupid behavior.

Serious topic
 

I was in court a few years ago and saw 3 little boys in a car (a baby, a 3yo, and a 6yo or so). It was very warm out, but not summer. I reported them to an officer in the courthouse who said that so long as the window was rolled down for air, it was fine. (!!!!!!?????) I'm sure the kids were fine, but what if mom/dad had been in court all day and left them? What if someone ripped off the car (the window was rolled down for easy theft, after all)? Who the hell leaves 3 little kids alone like that?

-T(still pissed off about it)L

Serious topic
 

I think in the gun case I mentioned it has - people here are so used to kids getting blown away by the family gun that they don't blink anymore. This one caused quite a stir.

-TL

Serious topic
 

I totally agree. We used to draw a distinction between mere negligence (i.e., performing a commonly-occurring act in a manner not marked with the requisite level of care or attention) and recklessness (i.e., affirmatively engaging in an unusual act where danger is obvious, even if harm is not 100% assured). Hell, Russian roulette wasn't even a crime until some British lord decided that we needed a special doctrine to outlaw it. We could weigh the social utility of the conduct in the context of the willfullness of the act, and drew necessary distinctions between drag racing on the one hand, and inattentive driving on the other.

Now, with the gradual criminalization of negligence law, we weigh recklessness purely by looking at its consequences. We don't seriously punish epileptics who drive cars, unless they kill someone. Then, we charge them with Murder Two.

Criminal law has no business addressing itself to a single, tragic incident of forgetfulness. A prosecutor should not compound a tragedy by charging someone who is completely undone by regret and grief from an accident where it is clear that the "perp" wished everything against the harm. Otherwise, on principle, we should prosecute every auto accident as a battery.

Serious topic
 

However, those who are guilty of more than just forgetfulness (see my drunk mom leaving kid in car post above) should get more than a sympathy card from the prosecutor. And I assume you feel differently about those who are guilty of sheer stupidity - those who claim they thought it would be OK to leave baby in the car in 100 degree heat ("just for a few minutes") on purpose?

-TL

Serious topic
 

The law already has tools to distinguish between people who harmed others unintentionally as a result of inadequate carefulness, and those who intentionally engage in a harmful act incorrectly believing it to be harmless (as in your "stupidity on purpose" scenario).

I think your examples are better suited to a case-by-case analysis. For the "I forgot I had the baby" crimes, which I think are entirely different because they involve no conscious act, the case is clearer.

Typically, to constitute involuntary manslaughter, (1) the defendant's conduct must involve a high degree of risk of death or serious bodily injury, and (2) the defendant must be aware that his conduct creates this risk. Here, the prosecutors are taking a very loose view of (2) to ask whether a reasonable person would know that leaving the baby in the car could kill or injure it. The proper analysis is whether the defendant knew that what he was doing presented that risk. If he didn't know he was leaving the baby in the car, no crime was committed, just as sure as if someone had placed the baby in the trunk without his knowledge and it remained asleep the entire time.

Serious topic
 

ITA, TL

Serious topic
 

replace the crushed school teacher loving father from the original post with the more typical 23 year old crack addict with 3 kids. 1 died, the other 2 in hospital. now does your analysis change? I feel bad for the high school teacher because he's closer to me so its harder to be judgemental, but the crack addict didn't know there was the risk (unless you mean should have known). the other wierd thread to this stuff is the kind of parent who wants the kid dead, you know the lady in SC who drove into the lake, I know its paranoid, but might she not try leaving a kid in a car on a real hot day? this kind of thing is why I'm glad not to be involved in criminal law.

The Best Age
 

2.5 to about 4 is maybe the most magical. I think up to entering school you are always showing them new things and you are so the center of their world, and believed without question (I don't mean obeyed without question which is different). The, ummm, control issues get more frequent with age, and the "hard questions" get harder. Example, my oldest just started high school and we're all over her to get grades up so she has options in college choices. Meanwhile, her grades are higher than mine were. We also are still waiting for the "did you take drugs?" but its also a cool time to see her as she starts becoming an adult , and see what she's taken of your personality. The elementary school years are fun because they start having interests of their own, sports etc. but elementary school is also where they start to learn you are not infalliable. both mine went to the extreme of deciding that I, in fact, knew nothing. middle school years- no comment.
What I've heard is the hardest is when they are 25-30. they are trying to find their way in the world, huge decisions/changes are happening, often big failures/disappointments, and you basically can't help with anything. the one piece of advice, enjoy as much as possible because they get grown up very quickly.