Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

While I see your point, I think this is incorrect. Anyone who is blurring those lines between Franken and Moore is squinting so hard their eyes may pop out. It's intentional because they want to justify voting for Moore (and I'm just using him as an example).

If we can't pick up people in close districts because they think, "Franken. Moore. Close enough. I'm going with the child molester." it's not because we didn't clear our ranks of the Frankens and convince them that we are morally superior. It's because those people could not be reached.

We need to stop being so fucking wishy washy. Every single Democrat who has a mic thrust in his or her face asked to discuss this should say, "The comparison of an alleged child molester to anyone else is irresponsible and I'm not going to dignify that game by playing. Franken is the subject of an investigation as he should be and appropriate steps will be taken once the investigation has concluded." Translation: Fuck outta my face with this bullshit.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Here the bigger thing: The Democrats are not going to win by being the non-pussy grabbing party.

Those social issues you think will win the day? They're losers.

The issues that will win the day are:

1. The GOP just fucked the middle class with a shitty tax bill;
2. Wages are still stagnating (see today's jobs report);
3. The GOP is defunding the ACA; and,
4. Inequality is accelerating under GOP policies.

The environment? Not going to win the Ds any new votes.
Trump's foreign policy insanity? Average voter doesn't care about or understand anything beyond US borders.

Pussy grabbing/pedophile in the Senate? That'll get some votes.
The GOP embracing alt-right psychos? That'll get some votes.
But not 1/10th of the votes #s 1-4 above will attract.

The Democrats need to attract the moderate swing voters and the people who pulled the lever for Trump thinking, "Eh, why not? He might be a magic ticket," and now have serious buyer's remorse.

The people exercised by the pussy-grabbing issue are already voting Democratic. Rather than preach to the converted, the Democrats should spend time and energy bringing back the voters who pulled the lever for Obama in '08 and then Trump in '16. Obviously, given they voted for two extremely different candidates on social issues, it all about $$$ (read: jobs and growth) to them.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I know you've paid attention to how the media handles these things. We don't control that.

As I said, the only way to stop the bleeding from the continued drip of allegations was for Al to step down. Repeatedly saying, "we'll handle that later" doesn't do it.

It's not. Believe it or not, people are capable of cynicism and reading "after the process is over" as "never."

It's not required for any charge. The whole party was on board for an ethics investigation after the initial allegations. It was the repeated new allegations, and the expectation that they would continue, that made resignation necessary.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

This

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Oh, that's absolutely a factor.

According to Klobuchar (always eager to put her name in the middle of things), he met with her the day before the announcement. I'd be shocked if she didn't say pretty much that.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I think the GOP is defending Franken as a preemptive move. They know their closets are full of some seriously demented shit, and they want to be appear non-partisan when they have to defend a deluge of David Vitters, Denny Hasterts, and Bob Packwoods.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It's almost like doing so helps their credibility when they turn to defending Moore and Trump.

He's not going to do that.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Two things:

1. We can be the non-pussy grabbing party without rushing to remove Franken who was accused of kissing someone a little too enthusiastically and squeezing asses. Punish him. If it's more than that, remove him. But the idea that we can't criticize Trump or Moore because Franken is in office is just dumb.

2. Wanting to be the non-pussy grabbing party is not about political strategy. Women shouldn't be assaulted. And neither party should tolerate it. That shouldn't be something either party takes a political stance on. And it shouldn't be something we're trying to run on. But we all need to understand that there are degrees of this type of behavior, some of which requires a measured response.

People do inappropriate shit. A woman at the Holiday Party about 4 years ago grabbed my dick at the bar. I've had women brush their hands against my ass or straight up grab it. None of these people should lose their jobs. If one of the partners I worked for grabbed my dick and said, "You want to be staffed on that next deal, you'll be quiet about this," they should be fired. Degrees.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

They spent three weeks saying that.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I saw tweets this morning saying that WashPo is preparing a story that will out as many as 40 alleged hill harassers.

ETA: I'm still not exactly clear what Trent Franks did, but credit where it's due that Paul Ryan told him to resign.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

They should if you felt harassed and complained about it. This is unacceptable behavior at work.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

There's still no there there. The worst allegations against Franken are that he grabbed someone's ass in a photo, and that he said "It's my right as an entertainer" while trying to kiss someone. The former is dispensed with by apology (if he even did it, which he says he cannot recall). The latter either did not happen or was a joke taken literally.

"Believe the women regardless of due process" may apply where there are numerous quite similar allegations. Moore's case meets that standard. His methods and approach were the same in each instance. Franken's case does not meet that standard.

At worst, Franken was a fratty jackass. To borrow from a classic tune, that "ain't no hanging matter... ain't no capital crime."*




___
* "Stray Cat Blues," Beggar's Banquet (1967). A song you most definitely can never play on the radio in the present climate. But should probably be played as intro to news stories on Moore for ironic effect.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It's always fun to hear from a bunch of men which transgressions against women are serious or not.

Anyway, as I've said, the politics and optics matter here a lot. I think not being an ongoing distraction and not being a liability on the ticket in the future are the key factors here. And, of course, things would have played out differently if the overall context was different.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I'm going to say this as an overall comment because I'm seeing it in each of your responses below. Fix your fucking tone. You are not in a position to be talking in this patronizing manner on this issue or any other.

It's a feeding frenzy. I know you've paid attention to how every single issue in the recent history of issues is treated this way until the next shiny object pops up.

Repeating yourself doesn't address my response the first 3 times you said this. What bleeding? Just because it's in the news doesn't necessarily mean that there is bleeding. If your point was Flower's (and we both know it wasn't) and the Party thought Franken was in real danger of losing his seat, okay. That can be debated. But this idea that we are being damaged just because the topic is on the news for more than a couple of weeks is stupid. If you think that not removing Franken gives people in Alabama license to vote for Moore, you're nuts. They're voting for him or not voting for him already no matter what the Democrats do to Franken.

I find this tactic of yours to be very annoying. Franken asked for an investigation which he wanted to cooperate with. If getting to the bottom of something and then taking action means "we'll handle it later" to you, then how the fuck are you even a lawyer?

This response is grating and condescending. We should proceed as a party based on the fact that some people think that an investigation isn't actually occurring? This can't possibly be your response.

Allegations. Is that the new standard? Franken clearly didn't agree with a few of them. But now if a person in a position of influence does something wrong, we can just get a group of people accuse that person of similar wrongdoing and that's the end of them?

There needs to be some kind of balance when it comes to believing accusers and granting the accused some form of defense. If the last 3 accusations against Franken turn out to be bullshit, we chalk up his losing a senatorial seat to tough luck?

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I'm going to bet he asked a staffer to act as a surrogate.

And I wouldn't be surprised if he offered her a raise to do so, which gets into office finance violations.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Right. And the whole Party has bled to death as a result.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Maybe. Should she be disqualified from holding office 20 years from now?

She misread the situation. She was drinking. Her career shouldn't be over as a result of it. And she shouldn't have to forfeit her future in another field either. If it was behavior that was uncovered after being looked into as being constant, that's a different story. All I'm saying is Franken should have had the benefit of an investigation before bouncing him.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

There are objective standards. This is not an issue where a person gets to say, "I feel that I was harassed, so I was harassed."

Nor can one say, "Only women may define harassment."

That kind of thinking is dangerous.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Stop it. You're doing as much to define what amounts to what is serious and what isn't as everyone else. If Franken was a serial massager of shoulders, should he be fired? Is that for you to say?

You can't possibly be saying that men have to cede all right to express an opinion as to what amounts to harassment and what doesn't. Jesus.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

There are some obvious differences that anyone with a brain can see in all of this. Though you'll see both men and women (not just on Fox, but other places too) who can't see them.

I am among those who don't yet see exactly what makes Al Franken's situation so bad he needs to go, but we aren't privy to what might still come out from elsewhere and it's been a steady drip (albeit a drip that seems to be being fed). So I'm also not going to get too hyper about him leaving.

Likewise, I don't yet see the fire behind the smoke in Trent Franks case. It may be we'll soon discover that the request to serve as a surrogate involved a rather unusual form of direct insemination in which the woman first donned a saddle, or that there were payments to be made that were less than appropriate, or that there was something else so twisted only an Alabama Republican could come up with it in the arrangement. I suspect his goal is that we'll never know.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

TM. Do you need a mirror?

We are being damaged when we're trying to talk about other things and the topic is repeatedly turned back to Al. You can deny that all you want, but people who are actually doing that messaging thought there was a problem.

Speaking of things I've said repeatedly: I think it has next to no effect in Alabama.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

This is an interesting article.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-c...isplaced-scale

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

OMG. There most definitely are not. Are you kidding??

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Yes there absolutely are.

TM's example of being groped once, by a drunk person, does not meet the standard for significant punishment. It was a one time aberrant incident.

Harassment, by its most elementary definition, requires repetitive and threatening behavior. An adequate amount of either alone will suffice, of course, but a one time aberrant act? Not harassment.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Let's keep in mind that he was not fired, but rather resigned because of the ongoing political controversy around his alleged behavior. That distinction matters a lot.

Cede all right? Of course not. But I am saying that the 4-5 of us are not in a position to make any bold declarations about what's harassing and what isn't and we should be very careful to be listening more than we're talking.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Yes. And in that mirror I've seen actual responses to your points.

Ah. I see. Although this is an important topic that is actually having a necessary moment that is way bigger than Al Franken, we're not going to be able to move past this issue to get to real issues until he steps down. You don't believe that. You just want to turn the spotlight off of Democrats. And discussions relating to the scale of the offense, whether the allegations are legitimate, Franken's ability to defend himself, and what appropriate steps need to be taken in relation to that scale doesn't seem to matter. Just shut that light off!

And the conversation we're having about Franken's actions and how we should deal with them shouldn't be addressed and discussed? We should squelch this conversation altogether simply because we keep having it? I would argue that as we navigate this new reality, this is precisely the time when we should be talking about what the appropriate reaction and/or punishment should be to different sorts of inappropriate behavior.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

In what sense? "Sebby's Personal Code of Consequences?"

Because in every other sense it does. If this incident were reported to HR, the person would certainly be punished, perhaps even fired. If TM were to sue for assault, he'd have a case. If he were to sue for hostile work environment, it would certainly be a salient fact in his favor (I'm no expert so don't know if he'd need more). Sounds actionable to me under any applicable legal standard.

You and I don't care, though, because TM doesn't care. That's a subjective standard.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

you need to start getting invited to different cocktail parties.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Yup. We're engaging in something right now which is laudable. Sexual harassment, and generally dickheaded behavior by men which marginalizes women in the workplace, should be addressed. But objective, nuanced criteria should be used to determine how to address it.

I'm not as concerned with women being infantilized as I am with them suffering discrimination. The corporate mindset is always risk minimization. If the standard for what constitutes harassment becomes exceedingly low, or subjective (how the harassed person feels, with no consideration of reasonable objective standards), the prudent business decision will be to avoid hiring women.

This of course creates even worse predators. Any man or group of men who make a lot of money for a company will be protected. Women will not be hired to work with them, and the problem at the root of all of this will persist.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You know that harassment is, by definition, subjective, right? All of the conduct that can be harassment isn't if all participants are willing and don't feel pressured.

Only to the profoundly stupid. Hiring dudes who can't behave instead of women is going to cause all kinds of obvious problems and liabilities.

You're implicitly assuming the men are essential and women are not.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It's not subjective. I'd say TM was being reasonable. To go to HR over such a thing would be unreasonable. It would be immature. That's why I characterized his response as "sensible."

Objectively, his response matched the behavior. One aberrant act should not be met with a complaint to HR.

And, that the act was actionable, which I agree it was, and that HR would have taken action, does not mean such a response would be reasonable. HR is a risk minimization department in these cases. Corporations make financial decisions. What one can complain and acquire redress for in a corporate setting resembles what is "reasonable" about as much as a Hyundia does a Bentley.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Again, it meets every applicable standard except your personal opinion. Okay.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You are fighting the hypothetical. Or maybe it's a straight dodge.

This is a bullshit response meant to shut the conversation down. It's also disingenuous.

I have not made any declarations about what is or isn't harassment. I have said that there is a scale when it comes to inappropriate sexual behavior and we should examine how best to deal with different types of behavior depending on where it falls on that scale. You're basically saying that multiple accusations no matter where they fall on that scale create an atmosphere in which the Democratic Party is being bled to death and can't move forward with any other issue until the accused is removed.

You are trying to avoid a substantive conversation about the underlying behavior and how to deal with it collectively by hiding behind politics and this idea that men should be listening while implying that I'm not. That's garbage.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

There are and always will be objective standards. If there are no objective standards for what qualifies as harassment, almost anything can be harassment. Are we really having this discussion? Seriously?

And yet, this is exactly what will happen.

Not in the least. I'm putting myself in the head of a typical HR person. CYA, CYA, CYA...

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I think you're taking it a step too far.

It is natural to always try to reach for objective standards because we all want to know what the rules are. But harassment is very subjective because the act (depending on how serious it is) can be seen in many different ways by many different people.

For example, the impact of someone kissing one person on the cheek a little to close to someone's lips can be taken very differently depending on a number of factors, including (i) the industry/business in which the people work, (ii) the culture of the person doing the kissing, (iii) who the person doing the kissing is, how powerful they are, etc., (iv) who the person being kissed is, whether they are subordinate or not, etc. (v) where it happens, (vi) when and how often it happens, etc. It is impossible to remove these considerations and many others from a great deal of behavior that may be inappropriate when determining whether it amounts to harassment.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

There are some pretty creepy serial massagers out there. I'm just saying.

Damn this conversation could use some women. Anyone lurking about.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Now we are going to disagree.

It didn't bother me. Because it didn't bother me, me making a federal case of it seems unreasonable, yes.

If I had grabbed someone's genitals (not hers because I don't think she would have minded) and that person freaked the fuck out and reported me, that is most definitely a reasonable response. I brought it up because I'm not sure that she should be ineligible to hold office 10 years later.

HR has two roles in these situations. One is certainly risk minimization. The other is establishing a work environment in which employees feel safe and comfortable. If the only focus is the former, that's a problem.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Really. Invite the guy to one of your story telling gigs. He needs to get out.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Of course there are objective standards. But those standards start farther down the scale of severe sexual harassment. It's the stuff that is on the edges and are lower on the scale where the real problems exist in figuring out how to prevent it and what the appropriate punishment is when it occurs.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I am with you up to the part after the "cannot". Maybe you're right, but maybe that's only this week's conventional wisdom. Maybe in October Sen. Moore (R. - Ala.) will be saying controversial, pig-headed things that get national play and Sen. Franken (D. - Minn.) will be laying low and not saying anything and the major bright line will be pretty damn bright. Because while Franken is all of the headlines this week, next week it will be something else, and the following week something else still, and so on.

On the other hand, maybe Franken should take some comfort that he gets to lost his seat in a way that feels like a real step forward for a lot of women, even if it sucks for him. And whatever he did, he probably understands better that he shouldn't have done it.