Quote:
Originally posted by bilmore
And I think the point is that the people at Abu Ghraib (sp?) were not given that discretion. But, war being a bloody unorganized mess, they took it anyway. And, are in the process of being punished. There's a large moral difference between authorizing a thing, and failing to stop a thing. They're being treated the same here, because it's convenient for the partisan argument.
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I certainly agree with your second point, on the large moral difference between authorizing a thing and failing to stop a thing (assuming said failure was inadvertent and/or negligent rather than reckless or willful). Most of the incidents we've heard of to date, particularly those involving the regular infantry and/or reserve/NG units (i.e. folks not well-trained/prepared for the job) seem to fall into that category.
That said, "failing to stop a thing" which one should stop (or minimize) can be a significant failure -- as I think it was not only in Abu Ghraib but in too many instances in this campaign and related efforts. (After all, its all one big War on Terror -- right?)
On your first point -- that they took discretion not given by the command -- that's probably true wrt Abu Ghraib and (like I said) most other incidents.
What troubles me most, though, Bilmore are the indications we have seen that there are individuals and/or units -- including some who floated in and out of Abu Ghraib - who _have_ been given that discretion to torture and kill prisoners.
In my view, too many bodies have been and continue to be turning up, reportedly in connection with "contractors" or "other government agencies" or SOF, for it to fall into the category of "shit happens without some direction from above." There are too many little news blurbs about investigations begun months and years after the fact that go nowhere, or are closed with a finding or no misconduct despite prisoner deaths. Remember the congressional testimony wrt Gitmo a couple years back that "the gloves are off now"? Once you take them off its hard to get them back on.
S_A_M
P.S. I don't go nearly as far as Taxwonk on the prosecution issue -- but I really think that if the Abu Ghraib troubles had not been so politically incendiary (and the CO had not been so aggresssive and media-savvy), the military sure as hell would have done much worse to General Karpinski. Like it or not (and I think its mostly good), senior commanders are held accountable for such complete breakdowns of discipline in their units, especially when there are systemic problems up and down the chain as Taguba noted. She wasn't even relieved of command.
