Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I am not weaving around anything. The WHOLE thing we have talking about, in different ways, is whether someone is a "racist" if they do prejudiced things without the specific intent to be prejudiced. That's the essence of the conversation. You keep talking past what TM and Adder (and I) have tried to say to you because you use the word "racist" in a narrower than other people do.
Oxford's definition shows this. To paraphrase, accurately, Oxford says a "racist" is someone who shows OR feels OR acts intentionally out of prejudice. You reject Oxford's definition -- you use the word only to mean someone who feels or acts intentionally out of prejudice, and you demand real proof of that feeling or intent, which can only come from someone describing racist beliefs.
Pro tip: If you are going to try the whole dictionary-definition gambit, check to first to make sure the definition supports you and not the other guy.
Further pro tip: When you blew dictionary-definition gambit because you didn't check and you got it wrong, don't double down by accusing the other guy of deceit.
I generally agree with what Adder said about the ubiquity of prejudice. I read a book in college, Prejudice, by Gordon Allport, which explains why people are wired to be prejudiced, so I don't see it as a stigmatic moral failing the way I think you do -- I see it as a part of the human condition to be acknowledged and overcome.
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Nice try. You aren't reframing this to fit your argument.
Here is what Oxford says:
racist
noun
A person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
Here is what I wrote when asserted that Oxford supports your position:
Sure, you can argue one can show discrimination toward others unintentionally. But Adder's point was that because we live in this country, we are (like our grandparents) all automatically racist.
That's flatly nuts, unless you believe that ALL people in this country at some point show discrimination toward others. That cannot be said. There is no way anyone can satisfy that standard.
The clarity you seek is something I've repeatedly provided:
You may not logically (and certainly not credibly) make the statement that all of our grandparents were racists, or that all current Americans are racist, simply because they were born into a society filled with racist systems.
Why? Because it's impossible. You would have to prove, using the Oxford definition, that everybody in those groups at some point showed discrimination or felt discriminatory feelings toward others. That's an unsustainable claim.
You are the one stating that I am insisting on intent. Do you see me saying that in what I've written above? No. I am saying Adder's proposition is flatly absurd.
You wish to argue with me about whether racism requires intent? Okay. Different issue. But one I also answered earlier, numerous times, when I said there are several circumstances in which one could be unintentionally racist.
But again -- THAT IS NOT ADDER'S POINT. His point, that we are ALL born racists because we live in a racist system, is indefensible. I already ripped it to ribbons on the issue that it's factually impossible to prove and facially absurd. I could also attack it from the perspective that it entirely removes human agency and assumes we are idiot vessels acting on social malware injected into us from date of birth,
without exception. (Meaning not a single man can overcome this "original sin.")
By the way, let's say I'm born here but at age 10 I move to Venezuela. Am I still inherently racist? Is there any country I could move to that would end the inherent racism? Suppose I move to Germany before age of reason? Still racist? Is there a time spent living in another country after the elapse of which this racism hardwired into all Americans is expunged?
Come on. You know, I know, everybody looking at this discussion rationally knows, the statement "All Americans (or all of any nation of tens or hundreds of millions) are racist" is hyperbolic and frivolous.
I have no misapprehension about possibly changing a mind here. You're dug in pretty hard, so no amount of logic is going to sway you or Adder from that ludicrous proposition. But I'd like you to say it to ten people on the street:
"Every American is inherently racist as a result of having been born here."
Even in a crowd of liberals, at least half of the people will say, "How the hell do you get to that conclusion?"
