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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I'm not ignoring them. I think about a 1/3 to 40% of his vote was bigoted in one way or another.
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I firmly believe that almost all of his supporters are racist or okay with racism because it doesn't affect them. But the distinction is absolutely meaningless to me because Trump's policies are actually fucking racist. He fans racism. He thrives on it. He quotes and retweets racists with the largest megaphone in the world.
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Right. Except Trump and Miller are not Trump's voters. The issue I was raising was the argument made after 2016 that a majority of his voters were racist.
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This is what I'm talking about. You can only have a conversation on your weird ass terms. You accuse everyone of something (in this case that the majority of his voters are racist) and then that's it. It's all related. If you can't handle a conversation that takes that into account, you are a clown who can only focus on what's in your clown head.
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Now, of course that's walked back when challenged. If I say that sounds high, people like Ty will backpedal and say it's "some percentage."
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That isn't what happened. Ty pushed back on your assertion and how you tried to pigeonhole him and the conversation. You can only discuss this topic (and all topics) on your own screwy terms.
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Not you. I think you really think it's a majority.
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If his policies are racist and he says racist things and he hires racist people and fans the flames of racist hate to his screaming, lunatic followers,
what fucking difference does it make if you have true racist feelings in your heart or you love a man who does all the racist things I've listed?
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Seriously? People aren't allowed to laugh at you? This isn't 1880s honor culture. If I say something to someone and they think it's absurd, they'd had better laugh at me. If you have an opinion and you air it, people are allowed to mock it.
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You can't be serious. If I say something mock-worthy, everyone should feel free to mock away. If I say that Trump fans the flames of racial hatred to the detriment of this country and people like me and someone laughs in my face, they've got a problem. Since that statement is a fact, the act of laughing in my face would be a challenge. And I don't think the people you know at your cocktail parties have the balls for that. Stop being obtuse.
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I have said a percentage of Trump voters are racist. I draw the line at people abusing that fact and stretching it to suggest that racism or bigotry explains the man's voters. Brexit and Trumpism are complex, and it infuriates me to hear people try to simplify them.
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What is infuriating is your inability to listen. If we're arguing about the
number of racists supporting Trump, why do you think that means I've rejected all other factors when it comes to why he won? If every single Trump voter is racist, there are still many reasons why he won. Among those are the racist gerrymandering and vote suppression. We've also all discussed third-party voting (hi Hank!) in this ridiculous electoral college system. We've spent plenty of time talking about economic factors. But your dismissal of the studies that state that racism and sexism
drove him to win because you think the line should be drawn at 40% racist is just fucking stupid. No one here thinks any of this shit is the sole reason for his win.
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
If that's all we discuss, and we don't address the economic issues that drove the other 65% to vote for him, we do ourselves a grave disservice. And that's what we've been doing.
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Wrong. We've spent 3 years talking about what makes Trump voters tick. We've discussed automation, foreign trade, the drawn out death of fossil fuels, demographic shifts, immigration, the economy generally, taxation, etc. But whenever anyone brings up the question of whether race played a significant role (and points to a study that says it most definitely has), you throw this same little shit fit.
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Hell, just bringing up Taibbi's book here is met with anger. Why? Because he asserts that the media has been oversimplifying these issues? What's wrong with doing that?
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I didn't really respond to your Taibbi posts because I think that guy has gone off the deep end. So I'm less likely to care about his opinion. Same with Dershowitz or Lindsay Graham. It's not just because I disagree with their points that I dismiss them. It's because there is something off with them.
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Your problem Let me guess... Perhaps because if we do that, things turn from an easy narrative of bigot candidates and their bigoted voters to one about complex economic issues where nobody can so easily claim the moral high ground?
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Please give me a few minutes to re-roll my eyes all the way back to the front of my head, because this sentence is completely fucking ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
The Right and the Left have narratives. A lot of the Left's narratives find there way into discussions here. Taibbi does a great job of exploring how these narratives are created. It hurts no one, and actually improves political debate, to engage that discussion.
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Here's the thing: I probably won't read Taibbi's book. He seems to have turned into a kook. But if you are telling me that the Left (read: all of the media not named Fox News and Breibart) has a narrative, you're stupid. If that's Taibbi's point, his point is stupid. If you want to point at Fox and Breitbart, two sources that fucking
coordinate with the Trump Administration and tell me they have a narrative, okay. That makes sense.
If you're talking about the Left's narrative generally (Trump does awful shit) like this is somehow coordinated derangement (and you've said this) and not just based on the awful shit he is clearly doing, I'm not interested.
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Or you can just keep having the same conversations over and over and wonder why on earth your "side" keeps losing elections.
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Oh Sebby! Thank god for you! Bringing your much-needed perspective and insight to this conversation and not just saying stupid shit constantly to be contrary or because you think everyone is tribal and can't have an independent thought unless it's the opposite of what they actually think! Thank you so much for your service.
TM
