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Old 08-09-2018, 01:26 PM   #2250
Tyrone Slothrop
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Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
And my point is, Murray does no credible science on race. So citing Murray as an example of science on the issue is saying nothing of any value.
You're not wrong, but you're also not hearing what I'm saying. Murray presents his work as scientific, though it is riddled with bias. When you pretend it's possible to engage in "a scientific assessment of instances where the victims of a systemic oppressed acquired responsibility for remaining oppressed," you are doing the same thing as Murray -- using "science" as a pretense for engaging in something that inevitably will reflect the bias and oppression of the culture.

Quote:
You're putting the rabbit in the hat, and you know it. By saying there is no credible data, you preclude anyone from scientific inquiry. Except that statement is false. There is credible data.

If one dominant culture discriminates against another, we have among many others two sets of significant data: (1) the discrimination; and, (2) the reaction to the discrimination. Necessarily, to the extent any reaction is self-defeating, a portion of it is the responsibility of the actor. The only way one can carve around this is to say that once discrimination has been set in motion against a group, the group can never bear any responsibility for anything going forward. No one is saying that, and no one can say that.

Are you saying a group once and persistently discriminated against can never be responsible to any extent for anything it does afterward? Because you have to say that to get where you're logically trying to get.

And let's not get into personal shots here. I'm asking you to play out the chess game on the logic here. This could be about any subject. But if you say yes, you've said oppressed groups' responsibility can never be assessed. Or you're saying it should never be assessed. The first is, I think, logically impossible. The second puts you with Klein, which is fine. But understand, when you do that, you take the position, "There is some knowledge we should not look into," which was exactly Harris' critique of Klein.
I think the notion that you can somehow measure and "assess" the "responsibility" of a discriminated group for its condition, let alone with "science," is total nonsense. I tried to make that clear when you first referred to the idea, and I asked you for a published example where someone had done that. If someone tells me they are going to write a book assessing the Gypsies' responsibility for their genocide by German Nazis, and that they are going to do it with science, I would expect that person to be wearing a tin-foil hat and driving a cab, at best.

I understand that you have put words together in a way that makes sense in your own mind. Is there some accepted and respected model in the world for what you think you are talking about? Honestly, the thing that comes closest to me is Murray's projected of blaming blacks' genes for their treatment by the culture, and using that as a justification to cut social spending and taxes for the rich. Murray at least blames genetics rather than choices by blacks. And you have dumped on Murray, so he is not your pole star. So what's your model here?

eta: Maybe you are thinking about comparative negligence and contributory negligence, and following the lead of the great Justice Traynor in Li v. Yellow Cab in thinking that it's rational for even a victim to be deemed to bear some responsibility?
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Last edited by Tyrone Slothrop; 08-09-2018 at 01:44 PM..
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