We are all Slave now.

[SEC_Chick]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

There's no hypocrisy. It's all of a piece. Conservatives do not care about process and equality. They care about outcome and hierarchy. They believe that Sarah Sanders Huckabee deserves deference and gay couples do not. The point of the "fuck your feelings" shirts is that liberal feelings do not matter and conservative feelings do. Conservatives do not believe in the Golden Rule. They believe, I've got mine, and fuck you. Since Trump expresses that better than anyone else, they adore him for it. People who thought they were conservative who disagree are discovering that they are no longer conservative.

I thought I would stop by since I have cooled off a bit, but I see Ty has it under control and can tell you all about what Conservatives think and believe.

For the record, Ty is wrong, and my twitter feed was full of people saying that Jack Phillips shouldn't have to bake a cake AND that the Red Hen should be able to deny SHS service, though the situations are not really comparable, as the cake case pertained specifically to furtherance of what is to many believers a sacrament, and thought Masterpiece was not decided on this basis, decorating a cake for a wedding is certainly more expressive than say throwing together a Caesar salad. See the twitter feed of every National Review contributor for confirmation (or specifically, David French, whose most recent Ordered Liberty podcast deals specifically with this issue). And many conservatives also thought that SHS bringing it up on twitter was a jackass move, but whatever. There was a fair amount of pointing out that the people cheering the Red Hen also largely intersected with the "Bake that cake, bigot!" crowd, but that's to be expected. Some people seem to be totally cool with the freedom of association thing, but only as long as it is their side "winning" by being assholes. I'm sure that the same people will be equally thrilled when someone like Cecile Richards is booted from a restaurant.

People like Ty thinking they understand conservatives in middle America is why we have Trump. I have seen a few #NeverTrumpers move to Trump agnostics and are now are full on MAGA. And it had nothing to do with Trump, but everything to do with idiots like Maxine Waters. I'm increasingly resigning myself to Trump 2020.

I'll go back to clinging to my guns and religion, now.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

I thought I would stop by since I have cooled off a bit, but I see Ty has it under control and can tell you all about what Conservatives think and believe.

For the record, Ty is wrong, and my twitter feed was full of people saying that Jack Phillips shouldn't have to bake a cake AND that the Red Hen should be able to deny SHS service, though the situations are not really comparable, as the cake case pertained specifically to furtherance of what is to many believers a sacrament, and thought Masterpiece was not decided on this basis, decorating a cake for a wedding is certainly more expressive than say throwing together a Caesar salad. See the twitter feed of every National Review contributor for confirmation (or specifically, David French, whose most recent Ordered Liberty podcast deals specifically with this issue). And many conservatives also thought that SHS bringing it up on twitter was a jackass move, but whatever. There was a fair amount of pointing out that the people cheering the Red Hen also largely intersected with the "Bake that cake, bigot!" crowd, but that's to be expected. Some people seem to be totally cool with the freedom of association thing, but only as long as it is their side "winning" by being assholes. I'm sure that the same people will be equally thrilled when someone like Cecile Richards is booted from a restaurant.

People like Ty thinking they understand conservatives in middle America is why we have Trump. I have seen a few #NeverTrumpers move to Trump agnostics and are now are full on MAGA. And it had nothing to do with Trump, but everything to do with idiots like Maxine Waters. I'm increasingly resigning myself to Trump 2020.

I'll go back to clinging to my guns and religion, now.

But of course there are also some of the MAGA assholes who were saying pretty much exactly what Ty was saying. It shouldn't surprise people that conservatives aren't always in agreement with each other, even if they unify to hate the likes of Ty, TM and me (though, of course, there's particular vitriol for TM in certain circles).

I've taken to following a bunch of conservatives I rather like, and it lulls me into complacency. I mean, if all the conservatives were Podhoretz, I wouldn't worry about the country as much. But then one of them quotes Charlie Kirk or Laura Ingraham, and I'm reminded that pretty much all we hold dear is at risk, including the ability to put together 280 characters of coherent thought.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

I'll go back to clinging to my guns and religion, now.

What really pisses me off about the damn bakers is not their politics, it is that they give Christianity a bad name. The religion I cling to is a faith in which God is not a bigot.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

What really pisses me off about the damn bakers is not their politics, it is that they give Christianity a bad name. The religion I cling to is a faith in which God is not a bigot.

I can't credibly claim to be an atheist because I can't entirely disprove the existence of some creating force.* But I can and do insist on strident agnosticism.

We can easily prove that all religions are fairy tales. And that if there is a creative force, it's in no way related to and communicated with via religion. Jesus, Moses, Mohammed - none of them have anything to do with God. They're historical figures, or characters, in myths and stories. So from one long lapsed Christian to you -- perhaps dispense with the rituals altogether. If a thing must be clinged to, and so many mountains of evidence prove it is not at all divine, and in no way endorsed by any creative force, is it worth following? And particularly where it can be so easily and neatly used to justify not only bigotry but slavery (the Big Three all endorsed slavery).

I think if there is a creative force, it's diametrically opposed to organized religion. Nothing could create so much and yet be tied to something so counterproductive.

______
*Try as I might, scientifically, logically I can't get there. And this effort involves substantial efforts to use Hitchens' Razor to knock out the theist position. No matter how I labor in that regard, the fact that this universe exists renders me unable to say there's no evidence supporting the existence of a creative force that may be defined loosely as "God."

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

What really pisses me off about the damn bakers is not their politics, it is that they give Christianity a bad name. The religion I cling to is a faith in which God is not a bigot.

Oddly, Scripture doesn't say anything about the role of baked goods in a wedding. To hear Colorado bakers and some conservatives, you'd think the baked goods play an integral role, rather than serving as a tasty treat at the reception that follows.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

Some people seem to be totally cool with the freedom of association thing, but only as long as it is their side "winning" by being assholes.

Show me a demonstrated history of discrimination against conservatives in public accommodations and maybe I'll care.

And it had nothing to do with Trump, but everything to do with idiots like Maxine Waters.

Yes, the angry black lady made them to do it. They can't be blamed.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Adder

Yes, the angry black lady made them to do it. They can't be blamed.

This part really is remarkable. The idea seems to be that it's ok not to have your own moral compass, and just to react to others.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

This part really is remarkable. The idea seems to be that it's ok not to have your own moral compass, and just to react to others.

Come on. That was a complete load of horseshit. Waters is something assholes get to point at to justify their bullshit. "She's encouraging intolerance! I can't vote for any party that has someone like her! I'll continue voting for assholes who ban Muslims, destroy families seeking asylum, cage children, roll back civil rights at an alarming rate, stomp on the LGBT community, steal Supreme Court seats, are caught up in fraud, scandal and treason, have diminished our standing across the world, etc., instead."

It's complete bullshit. Anyone who says their mind was changed based on what Waters said is lying through their crooked, rotten (most likely racist) teeth.

I completely disagree with refusing service to Sanders and shouting these racist, fascist assholes down when they're trying to live their lives. But where's the line at which government action results in personal repercussions? If they executed immigrants at the border as a deterrent are we then past the point where "people should be allowed to have different political viewpoints such that they aren't subject to personal harassment?" When do you start expecting real backlash on a personal level?

TM

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Come on. That was a complete load of horseshit. Waters is something assholes get to point at to justify their bullshit. "She's encouraging intolerance! I can't vote for any party that has someone like her! I'll continue voting for assholes who ban Muslims, destroy families seeking asylum, cage children, roll back civil rights at an alarming rate, stomp on the LGBT community, steal Supreme Court seats, are caught up in fraud, scandal and treason, have diminished our standing across the world, etc., instead."

It's complete bullshit. Anyone who says their mind was changed based on what Waters said is lying through their crooked, rotten (most likely racist) teeth.


TM

The point I wanted to make was a bit different. I agree with you that what Waters says will change no one's views on the right (and I think if Waters didn't exist they'd make up someone else an awful lot like her (or find someone, even if they needed to find a county commissioner or zoning appeals officer somewhere)).

But it's the idea that they don't have to have their own views of anything - their own moral compass - but can justify whatever they are doing based on it being not-Waters, not-Clinton or not-Obama. SEC was saying basically that conservatives were ready to ok putting kids in internment camps as long as Waters didn't like it.

What we are seeing is an abdication by much of the right of any sense of character or morality. They don't care how many pimps, rapists, pederasts or just plain old corrupt fucks they vote for, and they don't care what the rationale behind a trade war or a tax bill is (they won't have hearings and discuss them, anyways). It's a motto of "I don't care."

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

The point I wanted to make was a bit different. I agree with you that what Waters says will change no one's views on the right (and I think if Waters didn't exist they'd make up someone else an awful lot like her (or find someone, even if they needed to find a county commissioner or zoning appeals officer somewhere)).

But it's the idea that they don't have to have their own views of anything - their own moral compass - but can justify whatever they are doing based on it being not-Waters, not-Clinton or not-Obama. SEC was saying basically that conservatives were ready to ok putting kids in internment camps as long as Waters didn't like it.

What we are seeing is an abdication by much of the right of any sense of character or morality. They don't care how many pimps, rapists, pederasts or just plain old corrupt fucks they vote for, and they don't care what the rationale behind a trade war or a tax bill is (they won't have hearings and discuss them, anyways). It's a motto of "I don't care."

I don't think that's exactly right. A lot of what they do is motivating by the idea that there are real Americans, and there are other people, and the government ought to do more for real Americans and stick it to other people. There's a morality there. I disagree with it, but it's there.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

It's a motto of "I don't care."

Do u?

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

People like Ty thinking they understand conservatives in middle America is why we have Trump. I have seen a few #NeverTrumpers move to Trump agnostics and are now are full on MAGA. And it had nothing to do with Trump, but everything to do with idiots like Maxine Waters. I'm increasingly resigning myself to Trump 2020.

I'll go back to clinging to my guns and religion, now.

Do you really think so? Is Ty’s arrogance and the condescension of the coastal liberals on social issues really enough to drive you and people like you to vote for Trump as a way of retaliating against the arrogance, smarminess, and condescension of liberals? Why not support a Ted Kennedy to Trump’s Jimmy Carter instead?

As for religion, I wouldn’t call myself a good Catholic by any means, but at least the Church is being consistent with its version of Christianity - pro-life means more than just being anti-abortion, and its answer to WWJD is found in the four Gospels in places like the Parable of the Good Samaritan, where a lawyer asked Jesus “who is my neighbor?”

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

Do you really think so? Is Ty’s arrogance and the condescension of the coastal liberals on social issues really enough to drive you and people like you to vote for Trump as a way of retaliating against the arrogance, smarminess, and condescension of liberals? Why not support a Ted Kennedy to Trump’s Jimmy Carter instead?

As for religion, I wouldn’t call myself a good Catholic by any means, but at least the Church is being consistent with its version of Christianity - pro-life means more than just being anti-abortion, and its answer to WWJD is found in the four Gospels in places like the Parable of the Good Samaritan, where a lawyer asked Jesus “who is my neighbor?”

There is no one more condescending or smarmy than a right-wing evangelical.

I've got pretty strong faith that God isn't a bigot, but wouldn't pretend to be able to speak on Her behalf. Who knows, may She really does just want everyone to give money to Franklin Graham, vote for Trump, and wave guns at liberals. But the way some of these folks speak on behalf of the Lord makes me cringe.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

Do you really think so? Is Ty’s arrogance and the condescension of the coastal liberals on social issues really enough to drive you and people like you to vote for Trump as a way of retaliating against the arrogance, smarminess, and condescension of liberals? Why not support a Ted Kennedy to Trump’s Jimmy Carter instead?

Just to underscore the point, if a conservative makes a sweeping and possibly tone-deaf characterization about liberals, I don't think anyone would jump to call it "arrogance". The propensity of conservatives (there, SEC Chick, now I'll think of you as a conservative again) to feel aggrieved and victimized by having to live in a country with liberals is truly remarkable. "Arrogant"? All I did is try out an too long for Twitter on an internet chat board for lawyers. I'm just describing what I see on Twitter and Facebook.

The idea that this "arrogance" drives anyone to vote for Republicans totally confuses cause and effect. Someone *is* a conservative because they react to liberals in this way. The reaction to libs and the desire to trigger libs is the essence of conservatism. My two cents: As awful as Trump is, Never Trumpers continue to see themselves as a conservative because her reaction to liberals is so strong, and that reaction puts her in a camp with Trump and other conservatives.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

I thought I would stop by since I have cooled off a bit, but I see Ty has it under control and can tell you all about what Conservatives think and believe.

For the record, Ty is wrong, and my twitter feed was full of people saying that Jack Phillips shouldn't have to bake a cake AND that the Red Hen should be able to deny SHS service, though the situations are not really comparable, as the cake case pertained specifically to furtherance of what is to many believers a sacrament, and thought Masterpiece was not decided on this basis, decorating a cake for a wedding is certainly more expressive than say throwing together a Caesar salad. See the twitter feed of every National Review contributor for confirmation (or specifically, David French, whose most recent Ordered Liberty podcast deals specifically with this issue). And many conservatives also thought that SHS bringing it up on twitter was a jackass move, but whatever. There was a fair amount of pointing out that the people cheering the Red Hen also largely intersected with the "Bake that cake, bigot!" crowd, but that's to be expected. Some people seem to be totally cool with the freedom of association thing, but only as long as it is their side "winning" by being assholes. I'm sure that the same people will be equally thrilled when someone like Cecile Richards is booted from a restaurant.

People like Ty thinking they understand conservatives in middle America is why we have Trump. I have seen a few #NeverTrumpers move to Trump agnostics and are now are full on MAGA. And it had nothing to do with Trump, but everything to do with idiots like Maxine Waters. I'm increasingly resigning myself to Trump 2020.

I'll go back to clinging to my guns and religion, now.

"People who thought they were conservative who disagree are discovering that they are no longer conservative." I was thinking of you when I said that, actually. Your twitter feed may be full of those people, but you have been left to guard an isolated outpost while the rest of the army is fighting its battles somewhere else. If conservatives thought like you, we wouldn't be here.

"People like Ty thinking they understand conservatives in middle America is why we have Trump." This, on the other hand, is quintessentially conservative nonsense. No one votes for Trump because of what I think or say. (Oddly, no one ever suggests that people changed their minds to vote for Hillary because of "Fuck your feelings" shirts.)