We are all Slave now.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm tired of you're being in the middle on things. You and your confusing views, some of which are conservative, some of which are liberal, most of which are moderate.

Your perception of what is happening around you is batshit crazy.

TM

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Your perception of what is happening around you is batshit crazy.

TM

It's truly remarkable.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Your perception of what is happening around you is batshit crazy.

TM

The country is tribalizing into warring factions with biases. You think you're factual, but you pretty much sound like a script from MSNBC.

I had a brief discussion of politics with an older family member last nite. This was like listening to a Fox script.

The right's more crazy, and less factual. But you're both full of shit, and this place is uniquely full of shit because you actually think you've insight and knowledge. You don't.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

The country is tribalizing into warring factions with biases. You think you're factual, but you pretty much sound like a script from MSNBC.

I had a brief discussion of politics with an older family member last nite. This was like listening to a Fox script.

The right's more crazy, and less factual. But you're both full of shit, and this place is uniquely full of shit because you actually think you've insight and knowledge. You don't.

You really are full of yourself. Listen up: You possess no unique insight into anything. You lack the ability to listen to an argument without assigning your preconceived notion of what "tribe" that person falls into. You are worse than everyone on this board because you truly think you have the ability to hear the bullshit on both sides.

What you have never understood is that pretty much everyone on this board, no matter what the issue, has taken into account all perspectives and dismissed the ones they have found unconvincing. In many cases, that determination lines up with one side or the other. And here's the rub: That is not evidence of people plugging their ears and following along blindly with MSNBC or whatever.

There is overwhelming evidence of people here debating what the facts mean on every single issue. You ignore it all because you have assigned us all to a tribe in your mentally deficient mind. Sure, I lean left. But that is because (and I've said this many times) on every single issue, I believe the right is completely wrong. Hell, I often think the left is wrong. But they are almost always less wrong than the right.

You can name any issue at all and I will tell you where I stand on it. The result of my analysis is not a product of me choosing to stand with Democrats on all issues because they're Democrats and I'm a Democrat, so I must agree with them on everything. You repeat this tired, lame, bullshit ad nauseum.

The reason why we are more split than ever is because the right is taking waaaaaaay more extreme stances on every single possible issue. And so many on the right are completely resistant to facts and driven (partly? a lot? mostly?) by pure hatred.

So, you can keep acting like you're something special. But you really should realize that you're not. You're fucking delusional.

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

You really are full of yourself. Listen up: You possess no unique insight into anything. You lack the ability to listen to an argument without assigning your preconceived notion of what "tribe" that person falls into. You are worse than everyone on this board because you truly think you have the ability to hear the bullshit on both sides.

What you have never understood is that pretty much everyone on this board, no matter what the issue, has taken into account all perspectives and dismissed the ones they have found unconvincing. In many cases, that determination lines up with one side or the other. And here's the rub: That is not evidence of people plugging their ears and following along blindly with MSNBC or whatever.

There is overwhelming evidence of people here debating what the facts mean on every single issue. You ignore it all because you have assigned us all to a tribe in your mentally deficient mind. Sure, I lean left. But that is because (and I've said this many times) on every single issue, I believe the right is completely wrong. Hell, I often think the left is wrong. But they are almost always less wrong than the right.

You can name any issue at all and I will tell you where I stand on it. The result of my analysis is not a product of me choosing to stand with Democrats on all issues because they're Democrats and I'm a Democrat, so I must agree with them on everything. You repeat this tired, lame, bullshit ad nauseum.

The reason why we are more split than ever is because the right is taking waaaaaaay more extreme stances on every single possible issue. And so many on the right are completely resistant to facts and driven (partly? a lot? mostly?) by pure hatred.

So, you can keep acting like you're something special. But you really should realize that you're not. You're fucking delusional.

TM

I don't have special insight. I know that, which is why I'm skeptical. You, OTOH, are not skeptical. You take strong positions (as do many others here) which are dependably left. Then, when someone pokes a hole in one, you explode.

I don't think I have a unique ability to hear the bullshit on both sides. But do I think I'm looking for it a lot more than you are? Yes. I don't have a horse in the game except sowing skepticism. (I can't call myself right or left and don't like either party.)

On what single issue do you agree with the right?

I can name a number in which I'm left:

Pro-choice
Pro-immigration
Pro-free trade (it's strange to call this left, but I guess now it is)
Pro-prison/justice reform

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I don't have special insight. I know that, which is why I'm skeptical.

I recall how skeptical you were of Sam Harris's decision to invite Charles Murray to discuss censorship. It's just like the skepticism you show when people attack unions or environmental regulation, or when conservatives say tax cuts will create jobs.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I recall how skeptical you were of Sam Harris's decision to invite Charles Murray to discuss censorship. It's just like the skepticism you show when people attack unions or environmental regulation, or when conservatives say tax cuts will create jobs.

I'm hugely skeptical of attacks on environmental regulation. I also have expressed the view that unions are an economic positive (and that labor and capital are arbitrary distinctions) endless times.

And where have I advocated trickle down economics? The tax cuts were stupid. I said exactly as much.

You've a selective memory.

(You're also notably silent when my criticisms match yours. But when they don't, I'm suborning racism and Islamaphobia.)

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

And where have I advocated trickle down economics?

I'm old enough to remember you being a big advocate of "starve the beast."

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm suborning racism and Islamaphobia.

Good to see you man up and admit it.

Now let's talk about your 2016 vote again...

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm hugely skeptical of attacks on environmental regulation. I also have expressed the view that unions are an economic positive (and that labor and capital are arbitrary distinctions) endless times.

And where have I advocated trickle down economics? The tax cuts were stupid. I said exactly as much.

You've a selective memory.

(You're also notably silent when my criticisms match yours. But when they don't, I'm suborning racism and Islamaphobia.)

If I picked the wrong issues, I picked the wrong issues, but you are fooling yourself if you think you are equally skeptical of all sides of all issues.

All of us are noticeably silent here when we agree with each other. Nobody here has self-esteem issues that would prompt me to post that they're doing a good job when they say something I agree with, with the possible exception of patentparanyc.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I don't have special insight. I know that, which is why I'm skeptical. You, OTOH, are not skeptical. You take strong positions (as do many others here) which are dependably left. Then, when someone pokes a hole in one, you explode.

There's the magic in your skewed view of yourself. You think you're continually poking holes. Maybe sometimes you are. But most of time you're just stating the opposite position as if that in and of itself is somehow meaningful.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I don't think I have a unique ability to hear the bullshit on both sides. But do I think I'm looking for it a lot more than you are? Yes. I don't have a horse in the game except sowing skepticism. (I can't call myself right or left and don't like either party.)

Again, sowing skepticism isn't what you think it is. Poking holes in both sides is meaningless, especially because you really don't stand for fucking anything (other than your wallet, which is the only consistent position on policy I've seen you take).

I have no true belief in the Democratic Party or any particular politician. I go with the ones who espouse my views the most. It's a really very simple proposition. If I think 100% of what Donald Trump says is complete horseshit, that doesn't mean I am incapable of hearing the bullshit Hillary may be spewing. It does mean that I will vote for Hillary. You swooping in and pointing out that they both are full of shit does not make you something special.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

On what single issue do you agree with the right?

Good question. But surely you understand that if I say absolutely none, it's not because I am a brainwashed partisan who just follows whatever Democrats say. It's because I have thought about each issue and disagree with the opinions on the right.

And what does it say that I don't believe in everything Bernie believes in? Am I the Sebby of the left? Or am I just middle of the road on some issues?

What's funny about you is when I criticize the left--like I did when Hillary and Bill played those bullshit racist games with Obama--it doesn't mean a thing to you because you've already put me in a category that helps you with your tired ass tribal narrative. Obama's drone policy was bullshit. He was way too aggressive with immigration. None of that matters because I haven't agreed with Ted Cruz one time!

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I can name a number in which I'm left:

Pro-choice
Pro-immigration
Pro-free trade (it's strange to call this left, but I guess now it is)
Pro-prison/justice reform

I am pro-free trade and believe that we should not purchase goods from countries that subsidize products in order to corner markets.
I am a capitalist, but I believe there absolutely have to be limits on how much someone should make.

Tell me which issues I should side with the right on. If I tell you why I don't, will you actually believe what I say or is it just more evidence that I am in my tribe and incapable of independent thought? That's why this is a stupid exercise.

But I'll tell you this much: The right too often welcomes racists with open arms (or at least doesn't denounce them). While this is a minor point on your long issues list, it is of vital importance to me because racism permeates every single aspect of politics. Hell, on almost every single policy position I can think of, the only time the right seems to care about race (read: protected classes) is when a white person might have been impacted by a policy.*

Again, does that mean that I always agree with Democrats when it comes to race? Absolutely not. Are they almost always better than Republicans when it comes to actual policy? Hell yes.

TM

*Of course this is all you'll hear from this post, but I don't really care.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Tell me which issues I should side with the right on.

Sebby, tell me how good the bread is on that shit sandwich!

In the past, there were lots of issues here and there where some of my conservative friends and I might agree. There were first amendment issues, foreign policy issues, trade issues... lots of stuff. We could have done an immigration deal with George Bush, it was just the hard right people who blocked it. Ted Kennedy actually did do an education deal with him.

In Trump's America, if I found myself agreeing with anything one of the Trumpsters (and that means most of the Republican Party and virtually all of Fox New) put forth, I am immediately skeptical. One big problem is they rarely hold a sincere opinion, they are more about asserting and extending their control than about workable policies.

So it's all a shit sandwich, and their bread is pretty thin.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Tell me which issues I should side with the right on.

Oat milk is not milk.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Oat milk is not milk.

Which is why we call it oat milk.

Next issue.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

There's the magic in your skewed view of yourself. You think you're continually poking holes. Maybe sometimes you are. But most of time you're just stating the opposite position as if that in and of itself is somehow meaningful.

It is. How else do you test a position's credibility?

Again, sowing skepticism isn't what you think it is. Poking holes in both sides is meaningless, especially because you really don't stand for fucking anything (other than your wallet, which is the only consistent position on policy I've seen you take).

It's true I cannot get what I want from either party. But again, weakness in positions should be exposed.

Good question. But surely you understand that if I say absolutely none, it's not because I am a brainwashed partisan who just follows whatever Democrats say. It's because I have thought about each issue and disagree with the opinions on the right.

I don't think you're brainwashed. But when someone cites a person like Harris on the issue of censorship on controversial issues, and the reaction is a knee jerk "Harris is fucking racist!," without even considering what Harris said, am I wrong to sense some tribalism? GGG and Adder have taken the position Harris is invalid on all things, without even considering the conversation.

What's funny about you is when I criticize the left--like I did when Hillary and Bill played those bullshit racist games with Obama--it doesn't mean a thing to you because you've already put me in a category that helps you with your tired ass tribal narrative. Obama's drone policy was bullshit. He was way too aggressive with immigration. None of that matters because I haven't agreed with Ted Cruz one time!

And when I criticize the right, it's all good. But when I criticize the left, I'm in bed with the alt right! (Not your criticism, but Adder's.)

Tell me which issues I should side with the right on. If I tell you why I don't, will you actually believe what I say or is it just more evidence that I am in my tribe and incapable of independent thought? That's why this is a stupid exercise.

I don't think you have an obligation to side with any. I only think you have an obligation not to pre-judge. The standard on assessing Trump voters is not, "They're all racists except the extent someone proves some of them are not."

But I'll tell you this much: The right too often welcomes racists with open arms (or at least doesn't denounce them). While this is a minor point on your long issues list, it is of vital importance to me because racism permeates every single aspect of politics. Hell, on almost every single policy position I can think of, the only time the right seems to care about race (read: protected classes) is when a white person might have been impacted by a policy.*

I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this. I agree with it. 2?

Again, does that mean that I always agree with Democrats when it comes to race? Absolutely not. Are they almost always better than Republicans when it comes to actual policy? Hell yes.

Forget parties for a moment. This isn't really about parties at all. It's about bias. When someone pokes a hole in a position I hold, I don't immediately call the person a racist or a xenophobe or alt-right. Nor do you (this isn't really directed to you).

I grasp that you're annoyed that I think you've tribal sensibilities. I unfairly failed to distinguish you from those who knee jerked to use or "racist!" or "alt right!" (I should probably have this battle exclusively with GGG and Adder, who engage in that stuff.)

In this regard, I have generalized inaccurately, and lazily. I'll try to explicitly carve you out of this category as much as possible. But I can't drop the "tribal" criticism in regard to anyone who reflexively hurls an insult in response to skepticism. There's a certain "don't dare question what I believe" ring to that.

TM

*Of course this is all you'll hear from this post, but I don't really care.