Objectively intelligent.

[LessinSF]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

A little historic perspective about Minneapolis. My wife and I have been watching old TV shows. Currently Mary Tyler Moore Show. I guess my main comment is that I wish it were on HBO because then Mary would be naked a lot. I’m not trying to pile on your city at a trying time, just raising a point of criticism for consideration. Do you know why the city fathers pitched NBC instead of cable.

In her own single bed? Wait, that was The Dick Van Dyke Show. By the time she was throwing her hat, she must have had a vibrator to use when thinking about Ed Asner.
Edit - The show was set in Minneapolis and the only black actor was the weatherman.

[LessinSF]

I admit to being wrong. I think Minnesota, and think Democratic, liberal, not particularly racially charged, but:
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-wit...rogress/18428/

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by LessinSF

I admit to being wrong. I think Minnesota, and think Democratic, liberal, not particularly racially charged, but:
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-wit...rogress/18428/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...esota.amp.html

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by LessinSF

I admit to being wrong. I think Minnesota, and think Democratic, liberal, not particularly racially charged, but:
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-wit...rogress/18428/

PA is even better than MN. Ouch.

PA is a mix of extremes. Eastern side of the state from Philly to about 4/5 of the way to NY border is not racially charged. Not really helpful in fight against systemic racism either, as most of it seems uninterested in race issues.

But then you go to the middle of the state. "Oh myyyyy," as George Takei would say... That's truly Alabama. Openly racist enclaves abound. Confederate flags not uncommon.

York, Gov. Wolf's hometown, had race riots in the 90s.

Then you get to Pittsburgh, where things get normal again. It's not an area interested in diversity or race issues, but like the eastern side of the state, it's got a low volume of exercised bigots.

All things considered, PA is pretty lousy on race. It either doesn't pay attention to the issue (largely because its desperate just to survive because its economy is so awful) or it's openly bigoted. For MN to be worse than PA indicates Trump knew what he was talking about when he said he thought he could flip it.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

PA is even better than MN. Ouch.

PA is a mix of extremes. Eastern side of the state from Philly to about 4/5 of the way to NY border is not racially charged. Not really helpful in fight against systemic racism either, as most of it seems uninterested in race issues.

But then you go to the middle of the state. "Oh myyyyy," as George Takei would say... That's truly Alabama. Openly racist enclaves abound. Confederate flags not uncommon.

York, Gov. Wolf's hometown, had race riots in the 90s.

Then you get to Pittsburgh, where things get normal again. It's not an area interested in diversity or race issues, but like the eastern side of the state, it's got a low volume of exercised bigots.

All things considered, PA is pretty lousy on race. It either doesn't pay attention to the issue (largely because its desperate just to survive because its economy is so awful) or it's openly bigoted. For MN to be worse than PA indicates Trump knew what he was talking about when he said he thought he could flip it.

Minnesota gets real redneck real fast as you leave the cities. Meanwhile, a veto-proof majority of our City Council just voted to (if I can sort through all the misinformation and contradictory claims) take steps to defund and dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department and replace it with . . . well, they have not gotten that far yet as far as I am aware, but I’m sure whatever they come up with will be fine. In the meantime, it is supposed to be 96 degrees and humid today, so I am urging everyone I know to play this out their windows on repeat all day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KEVdHKsi9w

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Minnesota gets real redneck real fast as you leave the cities. Meanwhile, a veto-proof majority of our City Council just voted to (if I can sort through all the misinformation and contradictory claims) take steps to defund and dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department and replace it with . . . well, they have not gotten that far yet as far as I am aware, but I’m sure whatever they come up with will be fine. In the meantime, it is supposed to be 96 degrees and humid today, so I am urging everyone I know to play this out their windows on repeat all day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KEVdHKsi9w

Killer Mike has given a lot of good interviews since the Floyd killing. In each, he emphasizes the need to strategize and plan and make specific demands.

I understand the symbolism of defunding cops, but that forces the question, "What do we put in their place?" It'd be best to move with more strategy, like say:

1. Immediately taking all cops with a history of complaints off the street immediately;
2. Banning the acquisition and use of discarded military hardware by all police;
3. Banning the use of predictive police measures in inner cities (IBM and Palantir sell predictive software that, in coordination with cameras and racial profiling, basically turns many inner cities into versions of the movie Minority Report, none of which protects people in the inner cities as much it controls them, in the most Orwellian sense).

But the biggest pivot the movement needs to make is perhaps the hardest. It has to focus on the legislators who pass "tough on crime" laws and the courts that sentence people under them. These cops would not be emboldened to send four officers to deal with a suspected bad check if the legislature hadn't passed crazy laws that make such petty crimes on par with serious crimes.

The movement needs to target legislators who stand behind cruel and mindless laws and call them out as: (1) racists; and, (2) fiscally irresponsible. Jailing people drives up taxes needlessly and does nothing more than convert petty criminals into more serious criminals. The protestors should start demanding the resignations of judges that sentence harshly on small crimes and legislators who've run on tough on crime platforms. Make those fuckers defend themselves in the press.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Killer Mike has given a lot of good interviews since the Floyd killing. In each, he emphasizes the need to strategize and plan and make specific demands.

I understand the symbolism of defunding cops, but that forces the question, "What do we put in their place?" It'd be best to move with more strategy, like say:

1. Immediately taking all cops with a history of complaints off the street immediately;
2. Banning the acquisition and use of discarded military hardware by all police;
3. Banning the use of predictive police measures in inner cities (IBM and Palantir sell predictive software that, in coordination with cameras and racial profiling, basically turns many inner cities into versions of the movie Minority Report, none of which protects people in the inner cities as much it controls them, in the most Orwellian sense).

But the biggest pivot the movement needs to make is perhaps the hardest. It has to focus on the legislators who pass "tough on crime" laws and the courts that sentence people under them. These cops would not be emboldened to send four officers to deal with a suspected bad check if the legislature hadn't passed crazy laws that make such petty crimes on par with serious crimes.

The movement needs to target legislators who stand behind cruel and mindless laws and call them out as: (1) racists; and, (2) fiscally irresponsible. Jailing people drives up taxes needlessly and does nothing more than convert petty criminals into more serious criminals. The protestors should start demanding the resignations of judges that sentence harshly on small crimes and legislators who've run on tough on crime platforms. Make those fuckers defend themselves in the press.

Those are good long term goals, but the immediate effort is to assign the right resources to problems, rather than send armed and armored warriors, many of whom view the community as their enemy, into every situation.

It really shouldn't be controversial that we respond to traffic crashes with traffic enforcement (that doesn't need guns), overdoses with EMS and mental health crises with mental health professionals. The men with guns can be backup. You know, like most of the rest of the world.

Yeah, we don't have the staffing for all of that, in part because all the money goes to the police, but the system we have makes no sense and we need to change it.

But it's lots of fun having conversations with people who only heard "abolish the police" for the first time in the last week.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

Those are good long term goals, but the immediate effort is to assign the right resources to problems, rather than send armed and armored warriors, many of whom view the community as their enemy, into every situation.

It really shouldn't be controversial that we respond to traffic crashes with traffic enforcement (that doesn't need guns), overdoses with EMS and mental health crises with mental health professionals. The men with guns can be backup. You know, like most of the rest of the world.

Yeah, we don't have the staffing for all of that, in part because all the money goes to the police, but the system we have makes not sense and we need to change it.

But it's lots of fun having conversations with people who only heard "abolish the police" for the first time in the last week.

I don't disagree. That's why I suggested the first step is demilitarizing the police.

It's nuts that these guys have battered ram trucks, armored vehicles, all kinds of lethal hand combat weapons, and assault rifles.

Most of the serious violent crime involving guns was related to drug dealing. Why was drug dealing attractive? Because of the War on Drugs that rewarded such dealing with a huge risk premium. Take away that risk premium and you take away a large portion of the market, and with it the guns which market participants previously used to compete with one another.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Minnesota gets real redneck real fast as you leave the cities. Meanwhile, a veto-proof majority of our City Council just voted to (if I can sort through all the misinformation and contradictory claims) take steps to defund and dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department and replace it with . . . well, they have not gotten that far yet as far as I am aware, but I’m sure whatever they come up with will be fine. In the meantime, it is supposed to be 96 degrees and humid today, so I am urging everyone I know to play this out their windows on repeat all day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KEVdHKsi9w

Honestly, there are actual bad people that require there be police. That drastic changes are needed is clear, but man does “we are getting rid of police” sound bad. You scale back, get some major crime going, Trump gets a bump? I do not know what the answer is, but dumping po po is not it.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Honestly, there are actual bad people that require there be police. That drastic changes are needed is clear, but man does “we are getting rid of police” sound bad. You scale back, get some major crime going, Trump gets a bump? I do not know what the answer is, but dumping po po is not it.

I think most agree that some form of public safety mechanism is necessary, although it is not entirely clear people want that from the confused messaging on this subject, and I have not see a lot of specifics on what that looks like. Adder?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

I think most agree that some form of public safety mechanism is necessary, although it is not entirely clear people want that from the confused messaging on this subject, and I have not see a lot of specifics on what that looks like. Adder?

If you didn't have the police, you can imagine hoodlums running around and slashing people's tires just for the hell of it. Just imagine.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

I think most agree that some form of public safety mechanism is necessary, although it is not entirely clear people want that from the confused messaging on this subject, and I have not see a lot of specifics on what that looks like. Adder?

One thing that has bothered me for a long time from a privacy perspective is the welfare check. There are a lot of instances when I'd love to authorize our people to call for a welfare check on either a student or a patient, but I don't because the only avenue is calling law enforcement, and there are very proscribed rules in both HIPAA and FERPA for disclosing protected information to law enforcement. Most of the time the law enforcement exceptions do not apply, because the threat is not imminent. If there were a crisis intervention welfare agency that could do those sorts of checks, it'd benefit our populations greatly.

There are so many things we shove over to law enforcement that they're not really the best people to do. We run and staff the psych hospital. So many of our patients come from someone having called the police because someone was acting erratic or otherwise off. Some of them are event violent. But the criminal justice system is not equipped to handle them.

There are something like 18 overlapping police departments in the med center. I've never really understood why so many are necessary, especially the forces for private entities like the Med Center itself or Rice University. One of my closest friends, a Ph.D, in economics from Cal Tech and an undergrad in math from Harvard, was hauled to jail by one of the Med Center cops after she rolled a stop sign and didn't pull over fast enough for the cop's liking. I think the charge was "evading arrest" in a fucking parking garage. I'm sure that her brown skin had absolutely nothing to do with it. Cop was so irritated with her he called her boss in some sort of misguided effort to get her fired. They're fucking mall cops with arrest power, and they are itching to use it. A lot of them end up on the smaller forces when they can't cut it in the bigger forces.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Honestly, there are actual bad people that require there be police. That drastic changes are needed is clear, but man does “we are getting rid of police” sound bad. You scale back, get some major crime going, Trump gets a bump? I do not know what the answer is, but dumping po po is not it.

It sounds bad to people who still associate the police with making things safer. Weirdly, lots of (especially white) people still do even after watching them start riots and rough up protesters all over the country.

We need a public safety system, including, at times, ones with guns. But we're applying the wrong solution a lot of the time and we need to change that.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Adder

It sounds bad to people who still associate the police with making things safer. Weirdly, lots of (especially white) people still do even after watching them start riots and rough up protesters all over the country.

We need a public safety system, including, at times, ones with guns. But we're applying the wrong solution a lot of the time and we need to change that.

what is a public safety system, and how does it differ from police? how does Minneapolis transition? What if someone breaks in your house armed during the transition?

over the years several police forces have been put under Fed scrutiny, Detroit's included. One major change was to make the racial make up, especially in command positions, look like the community. Minneapolis's police does not look like the community.

[Icky Thump]

Originally Posted by LessinSF

In her own single bed? Wait, that was The Dick Van Dyke Show. By the time she was throwing her hat, she must have had a vibrator to use when thinking about Ed Asner.
Edit - The show was set in Minneapolis and the only black actor was the weatherman.

True fact: I saw Ed Asner on a Metro-North train once.