Cars and Other Driving Machines

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
NFH is wrong; you are right. I've discussed this with salesmen, and the BMW residual calculation is simply a percentage of the MSRP of the car you lease, as equipped. They don't have an accelerated depreciation schedule for options or anything like that.

Really? From what I understand about residuals and option prices/effects on residual, they must really be taking a bath on that. There's no way a $50k MSRP Z4 is really worth 25% more than the base 3.0 $40k Z4 after three years of lease. I guess they make it up for it on the high margins on options, anyway. I think nav costs the dealers like $1k or so, where the MSRP is $1800.

I'll have to talk to my dealer. The Z4 residuals seem very good, and if I could get a Z4 3.0 lease with nav, HID and the premium packages to around $500/month (which is where is appears that it should be, since that's about $48k MSRP and the math comes out to about that if they give you the same kind of lease packages that you can get on the Z4 2.5 automatic), it would be hard to pass up.

I'm driving the SMG Z4 3.0 and M3 this weekend, so I'll let the group know my thoughts.

As to the hardtop, news reports and the message boards suggest it was to be available as a factory option on 2004 Z4s, but I can't find anything on the BMW site. The aftermarket options are kind of hit or miss, it seems.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by mmm3587
There's no way a $50k MSRP Z4 is really worth 25% more than the base 3.0 $40k Z4 after three years of lease.

Why not? For the same reason you want all the goodies, so does the person looking to buy in three years. Besides, even if the options depreciate in value by 75%, whereas the base car goes only 50%, you'd be looking at a 12.5% difference. Remember also that BMW probably isn't too interested in having a bunch of stripper Z4s in its resale fleet down the road from now.

[Alex_de_Large]

Originally posted by mmm3587
I'm driving the SMG Z4 3.0 and M3 this weekend, so I'll let the group know my thoughts.

I am curious to see how you like the SMG. I am considering it as a compromise between my "must have a manual tranny" position and my wife's "won't drive a manual tranny" position (we only need one car). A 325iT with SMG and sport package seems like the best of all worlds (of course, we don't get the 3.0 or the D engine in Touring in the US, but that is a rant best saved for another post).

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Why not? For the same reason you want all the goodies, so does the person looking to buy in three years. Besides, even if the options depreciate in value by 75%, whereas the base car goes only 50%, you'd be looking at a 12.5% difference. Remember also that BMW probably isn't too interested in having a bunch of stripper Z4s in its resale fleet down the road from now.

Well, regardless of what BMW wants in its resale fleet or what I want in my car, my impression of residuals and resale values is that the options aren't going to hold their value as much as the value of the unoptioned car. That's the market speaking, and that's what determines residual values. If I'm wrong about that, or if BMW finance is willing to eat that in order to sell better optioned cars, goody for me. I hope you're right.

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by Alex_de_Large
I am curious to see how you like the SMG. I am considering it as a compromise between my "must have a manual tranny" position and my wife's "won't drive a manual tranny" position (we only need one car). A 325iT with SMG and sport package seems like the best of all worlds (of course, we don't get the 3.0 or the D engine in Touring in the US, but that is a rant best saved for another post).

Sadly, the stupid salesdroid didn't understand the part of our conversation where I said "I want to drive the Z4 3.0 and the M3 the SMG." They have neither in stock, and I still haven't driven an SMG. I will go to another dealer this weekend and drive the Z4 SMG.

I would have thought it was to "try to sell him something else," but they were pretty happy to let me futz around with the manuals in both the Z4 and M3 for a while without too much pressure. I got a referral to them from a Z8-owning partner at my firm, so it was nice to not to have to deal with the typical dealer tomfoolery.

The M3 6M is fantastic. The motor is fantastic. The car is so fantastic. It's such a leap over the E36 M3 that it's just amazing. The interior is beautiful. I have told myself that I will not spend close to $70k all in on a car, but it's tough. I almost would just get a stripper M3 coupe, but I would kill myself for not optioning it out, and it would still be close to $60k after tax and even a minor option or two. Navigation, I think, is a must. So, no M3 for me. But I can't think of a better driver's car in the price range. Nothing from Mercedes or Lexus or Acura comes even close until you consider the NSX, which is around $90k now. I haven't driven the new S4 (and I don't think I'll get to drive an RS6), but that would be the only thing I could imagine would be close.

I've been disappointed with the 3.0 engine in the X5, but it really motivates the Z4. But make no mistake, the Z4 is nowhere near as small as the Z3. It's almost absurdly roomy. Great lines, too.

In other news, the dealer suggested I go over to U.S. Cellular Field nee Comiskey Park for the autocross event of BMW "Ultimate Drive." I had previously driven the 4.4i X5 in their autocross events, so I wasn't too excited about driving an automatic X3. But I was really impressed. The space is actually really good in the car. It's a nice size, and it's so perfectly balance and absolutely throwable, especially with the aftermarker rubber. I don't know if the SMG is available in the X3; I would hope so, as the automatic was kind of annoying. In the "manual" mode, it will downshift to first from second and not upshift. I was able to hit the top of second in the straights, and, of course, in a 10-10ths situation, it's tough to convince yourself to shift to third for a split-second before you brake and corner hard.

Anyway, if you're interested in BMWs or just cars and racing or just safe driving in general, I suggest that you do this event when it comes to your town. I was pretty surprised what they let you do. I've autocrossed for years, but most people clearly hadn not. They were pretty finicky about the X5s when we autocrossed them, and the corners weren't that tight. This course was small and tight with only a few straights, but they just let you drive like crazy. They claimed that the car was nearly unflippable without specific intent, and I'm inclined to agree.

I would actually consider an X3 if they offered a larger engine, but the 3.0 is just too weak for it. The engine is nice and torquey, but even with 230 hp and comparable torque, it takes 7.5 to get to 60 for the manual. Considering the other performance available at that price (350Z, WRX, IS300 and countless others all under 6, EVO and STi around 5), it just seems silly. Really, it's a wagon, not an SUV or SAV or anything like that, and they should see it as competing with wagons, hatches and sedans. No one is going to cross shop an X3 with the Rav4 or the CRV.

Also, BMW needs an I6 between the 3300CC M with 333 hp and the 3000CC 3.0i engine with 230 hp. I know that they want to upsell, but there's customers in that gap. Like me. If they offered a detuned (from the M) 3300CC I6, I might be in that car. As is, it falls in the FX35 category of "nice car, but fundamentally flawed." I'd also maybe be in an FX35 if they offered that car with a manual.

[Alex_de_Large]

Originally posted by mmm3587
unavailability of SMG-equipped cars

Well that sucks...

[mmm3587]

Well, the dealership called me today to tell me that they had a SMG-equipped car brought in, so I spent 30 minutes in one this afternoon.

I was very disappointed. The SMG does a poor job of modulating and releasing the cluth when you're braking, and it's not very smooth. Shifts seem delayed and very rough. At least the torque converter's involvment in the shifts in the "manual" mode of an automatic makes it deleceleration and shifts under throttle smooth. The SMG was really bad. The Z4 I drove was also equipped with the sport package, which includes an extremely stiff suspension and 18" wheels with little tire around them. The car was essentially undrivable on rough road; the salesman and I were bouncing all over the place. I think I bottomed out on LSD. I'm sure that I also was transmitting poor throttle control because of the rought ride, but it seems like the computer (after all, isn't the throttle drive-by-wire?) should take care of that. The car had a tire pressure problem, which might have contributed to the poor ride, but I don't think that was everything. I may try to get some seat time in an SMG Z4 without the sport package, but it may be tough to find one. All in all, it would be a phenomenal track car, but terrible for daily driving or weekend cruising.

I think I'm sold on a manual Z4, though. I was amazed how much this dealership is willing to deal. $3k off MSRP without even really trying, and I don't think that they really negotiate beyond that. And that's fine. Has to be ordered with the navigation, but some non-union South Carolinians are going to be building me a very nice nominally German car very soon, I think.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by mmm3587
I was very disappointed. The SMG does a poor job of modulating and releasing the cluth when you're braking, and it's not very smooth. Shifts seem delayed and very rough. At least the torque converter's involvment in the shifts in the "manual" mode of an automatic makes it deleceleration and shifts under throttle smooth. The SMG was really bad

It may not matter, in light of budget and desires, but the SMG in the Z4 is a less sophisticated version than the one in the M3. Of course, the M3 version may have the same problems.

also, I don't believe there's any torque converter on any of them. It's just a clutch, like on any stick shift. The A mode just does all the shifting for you.

I'm curious to drive one to see if I share your disappointment.

[Alex_de_Large]

See more pics here.

[mmm3587]

Another long car post, but, bear with me, typing all this stuff helps me decide what to do...

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
also, I don't believe there's any torque converter on any of them. It's just a clutch, like on any stick shift. The A mode just does all the shifting for you.

When I said "At least the torque converter's involvment in the shifts in the ['manual'] mode of an automatic makes it deleceleration and shifts under throttle smooth," I meant in a true automatic with a "manual" mode (one where you can have some input over shifts), like in most luxury automatics (including, the automatic available on (almost?) all BMWs.

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
I'm curious to drive one to see if I share your disappointment.

I'm curious, too. I may have to hit the message boards and arrange for another drive before I make a final decision. I thought that most of the things I read about the SMG on the message boards were pretty positive, and I can't believe that all those people were that off base. It may be that I drive with heavy throttle and, efficiency be damned, tend to stay in a gear high into the range of revolutions if I'm in a position where instant acceleration may be necessary, desirable or just enjoyable. But I can't imagine that most BMW enthusiast were that different. Maybe the low tire pressure and the rough ride made it worse. Admittedly, the SMG was fantastic over 25 MPH. But, shit, I live in Chicago, and the SMGs inability to engage the clutch to coast was really annoying. Do I have to go all the way down to neutral at every incidence of coasting in order to do so smoothly? That seems crazy, because the same car with the manual coasts smoothly in gear.

I also drove the S2000[1] and the SLK 320[2] in the interest of cross-shopping, but wasn't really that impressed with either one of them. I still want to drive the new Audi TT, but might have to do some work this week instead of spending all my time tes-driving cars and spending the next months' paychecks on them.

[1] Great, but it's true about it being all HP and no torque. Power is nice, but you can't spend all your time at 6500 RPM.

[2] The SLK 320 is way underpowered for a driver looking for a driver's car. I can't help but feel that Mercedes just wants to sell image and luxury these days. As long as Mercedes is the fantasy of rappers and porn stars, they'll succeed on the former, but they're already behind several other makes on the latter. And they certainly don't compete on price, performance or reliability. The cars do look fantastic on the outside, and the interior is very nice, but I think they lose the whole-package calculus for me unless you are in a mugh-higher price range ($80K+) or you value image way more than I do. Plus, I would keep my [current car] if I wanted to be treated poolr at a dealer.[3]

[3] I really tried to have an open mind, but I wasn't really happy with the way that I was treated at the Mercedes dealer. I'm a youngish looking guy, but I'm serious about dropping 50 large on a really nice car. I should not have to prove myself, or establish myself or any of that shit. I've done the exact same thing when I wanted to test drive a car ever since I was about 18. I've only driven cars I was serious about buying, and I've just called the dealer, asked for a salesperson and arranged for a test drive. The two BMW dealers I went to were fine about letting me drive an M3; Audi was good; even the Porsche people were fine about everything. The Mercedes dealer salespeople were pretty huffy and wanted to ask a lot of questions. I filled out a "prospective buyer" questionnaire and listed my income and gave them a business card, and then they warmed up. Regardless, it left a very bad taste in my mouth.

[mmm3587]

I came across this today:

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/audi...r.num3.1.audi*


I am behind on reading car magazines; I had no idea that Audi put the S4 powerplant and drivetrain into the cabriolet. It's a damn heavy car (4100 lbs), but I think that has to be the only recent AWD convertible not made in Stuttgart. This may merit a test drive. Is this the M3s only real competition?

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Alex_de_Large
Porsche

You know, I've never understood the attraction of Porsche. Maybe I'd have to drive one to understand, but the looks have never been compelling.

As for the S4 cabrio, I think it is the only M3 competition out there. It's pretty similar on the specs (not identical of course). Talk about a sleeper, though. It looks just like the A4, whereas teh M3 has some clear styling details that make it quite distinct from teh 3ers. And it just looks "soft" as a car--like a Sebring-type styling--not particularly aggressive.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
You know, I've never understood the attraction of Porsche. Maybe I'd have to drive one to understand, but the looks have never been compelling.

As for the S4 cabrio, I think it is the only M3 competition out there. It's pretty similar on the specs (not identical of course). Talk about a sleeper, though. It looks just like the A4, whereas teh M3 has some clear styling details that make it quite distinct from teh 3ers. And it just looks "soft" as a car--like a Sebring-type styling--not particularly aggressive.

On a related note (sorta), I saw a S6 wagon on the way to work this morning. That would be a fun (but practical) car to have if I could handle the sticker shock that comes along with it (I can't).

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
On a related note (sorta), I saw a S6 wagon on the way to work this morning. That would be a fun (but practical) car to have if I could handle the sticker shock that comes along with it (I can't).

That and the problem that Audi doesn't export them to the US anymore, and Alex de Large is first in line for the next export. But, yeah, sweet car. A BMW 540 wagon would be pretty nice too.

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
[V8 wagons don't come to the US anymore]

They can't sell them. The 540i wagon was the only BMW not available in the US with a manual for a while, and they couldn't sell the automatic. I hardly every see Audi wagons.

People buy cars at least partly for image, and the image-conscious won't touch a wagon. And people spending $60K+ for a car are more likely to be the very image conscious types.