Posting Towards Gomorrah

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
The only justification is the "ticking time-bomb" scenario, and I doubt the utility of torture then because, well, the time-bomb is ticking and the prisoner knows he just has to make it until the timer expires. Other times, in addtion to being immoral, it just yields bogus results. Do you think the US prisoners of Viet Nam really thought the US sucked, or do you think they were just saying that to avoid torture?

So if it could be demonstrated that the use of torture has and will save American lives, then you would support the use of torture by American interrogators?

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
If you actually equate the "belly slap" (or even waterboarding for that matter) with decapitation and murder, then there is no point for me to continue with this discussion.

I take it you want us to move past the belly slap, though, that's clearly acceptable treatment to you. Where is your line drawn?

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Spanky
So if it could be demonstrated that the use of torture has and will save American lives, then you would support the use of torture by American interrogators?

Not if it could be demonstrated that there are other, better ways of getting the same information.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Not if it could be demonstrated that there are other, better ways of getting the same information.

you mean reading that book you guys keep talking about?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Not if it could be demonstrated that there are other, better ways of getting the same information.

What if there weren't?

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Spanky
What if there weren't?

There are.

[SlaveNoMore]

Spanky
1) I think it is obvious that our use of torture, and the fact that it has been made public, is hurting our image and our struggle for hearts and minds around the world.

Perhaps it feeds the vitriol of folks in this country (and possibly Western Europe, not that they will like us one way or the other), but I think you're overreaching if it thinks this affects any opinions elsewhere.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Perhaps it feeds the vitriol of folks in this country (and possibly Western Europe, not that they will like us one way or the other), but I think you're overreaching if it thinks this affects any opinions elsewhere.

I beg to differ.

[SlaveNoMore]

Gattigap
I beg to differ.

Who are we angering? The Russians? The Syrians? The Chinese?

Hell, they do worse to their own citizens on a routine basis.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
There are.

Oh give me break.

Assuming we can get information through torture that will save american lives, you can gurantee that we can get that same information through other means that will save the same lives.

That just seems completely unrealistic to me.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
There are.

you are omniscient? wow! why didn't you say so earlier, we could have avoided all this arguing........or wait. Are you just basing that on some guy's opinion you read?

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Spanky
Oh give me break.

Assuming we can get information through torture that will save american lives, you can gurantee that we can get that same information through other means that will save the same lives.

That just seems completely unrealistic to me.

While I think what you are saying is plausible, I think that it's not possible for you to guarantee that we can definitely get better information through torture. I think we'd get a lot of chaff through torture, and then have to wade through all the bullshit.

Whatever we do, there are going to be bad information downsides. I don't think torture is guaranteed to get us as good, let alone better, information that interrogation that does not use torture.

Originally posted by Spanky
Oh give me break.

are you dating baltic beauty or whatever again?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Spanky
So if it could be demonstrated that the use of torture has and will save American lives, then you would support the use of torture by American interrogators?

I am comfortable with the idea that our leaders may, in extraordinary circumstances, do things that aren't legal. For example, Clinton authorized some renditions over legal objections, as described in Clarke's book. I am not comfortable with the proposition that hypothetical extraordinary circumstances are a justification to change the law governing ordinary situations. If the situations are extraordinary and compelling, I trust prosecutors to make the right call later on. Take the CIA operative who hypothetically tortures a terrorist who knows where a nuclear bomb is about to go off. Does anyone think em will be prosecuted?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Who are we angering? The Russians? The Syrians? The Chinese?

Hell, they do worse to their own citizens on a routine basis.

Maybe "anger" is the wrong word. Around the world, the USA stands for ideals that those countries do not. You want us to be more like them. No thank you.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Who are we angering? The Russians? The Syrians? The Chinese?

Hell, they do worse to their own citizens on a routine basis.

People from around the world come here in part because they live in regimes that do that shit and worse, including to their own citizens. They come here and look up to this place in part because we've said we don't do that shit. They watch and eat up Rambo movies where they see the OTHER GUY doing the torturing, not our guys.

If you believe that the only people who care are the Angry Left in the US and some assorted Frenchmen, you're entitled to that opinion. I think you're wrong, but no matter. It's inherently intangible. We could talk about polls, I suppose, but I suspect that you won't put much value in them.

Gattigap