I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

It better be a really wide fucking field.

Fucking fields are the best fields.

Are we allowed to talk about sex on the politics board? Because I can't help myself.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I make this exceptionally easy. I want to everyone to leave each other alone as much as possible. And I want the govt to leave everyone alone except where absolutely needed.

It's perhaps seen as a cold world view, and it is impossible, but I wish to try, and I will happily cooperate with to cut the necessary deals to get some of what I like.

Do you ever worry that just leaving everyone alone from this point forward leaves in place the legacy of past (and current) policies that historically advantaged white guys like us and very explicitly disadvantaged women and people of color?

Slight tangent, I think I've said it everywhere but here already, but everyone should watch 13th on Netflix. I also thought the first two or three parts of the OJ 30 for 30 were a great reminder of the historical context (the parts on the trials itself were good, but less compelling to me).

We're not all in it together. Nor are we "better together."

On this, we will just have to disagree.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick

Fucking fields are the best fields.

Are we allowed to talk about sex on the politics board? Because I can't help myself.

If I'm following what the mod is laying down, it's fine as long as you don't ask Sebby to look in a mirror while doing so

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick

Fucking fields are the best fields.

Are we allowed to talk about sex on the politics board? Because I can't help myself.

We can talk fucking. We can talk funking. The boundaries have eroded during this campaign.

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick

Fucking fields are the best fields.

Are we allowed to talk about sex on the politics board? Because I can't help myself.

Of course! There might be more (or less, I guess) of if starting Wednesday.

[Adder]

Our neighbors just put up a Trump/Pence sign, so we may have to move as well.

Those neighbors have now (proudly?) joined the guy around the block who used to have display a Confederate Battle Flag and has/had Ben Carson stickers on his several junker vehicles that he parks on the street.

Not that a couple of random GOP votes in South Minneapolis are going to matter.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Adder

Our neighbors just put up a Trump/Pence sign, so we may have to move as well.

Those neighbors have now (proudly?) joined the guy around the block who used to have display a Confederate Battle Flag and has/had Ben Carson stickers on his several junker vehicles that he parks on the street.

Not that a couple of random GOP votes in South Minneapolis are going to matter.

Last November, my brother went to the Planned Parenthood gala, which was in the next hotel ballroom over from a Ben Carson fundraiser. No one knew what whether to nod or snub the people they ran into in the hall on the way there. It was pretty funny.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm not free thinking. I'm being served a shit sandwich and told I'd better smile while chewing, because it's in my best interest.

Petulant might best describe my mood. And yes -- sneering at those who will be happy with either of these two winning. Wednesday will be much like any other. If I see a redneck in one of those hats or a Hillary supporter smiling, I probably won't even bother to cut them off in traffic. But then again I might.

We get it. You're better than they are.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick

Are we allowed to talk about sex on the politics board?

Of course. Most of what we talk about here is dirty.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick

Fucking fields are the best fields.

Are we allowed to talk about sex on the politics board? Because I can't help myself.

If they can in Presidential debates of course it is okay. The only requirement for posting on PB is US Citizenship. Ty can clarify if you need be natural born. Personally I think GGG is from like Iranistan or someplace so prolly ok!

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

Do you ever worry that just leaving everyone alone from this point forward leaves in place the legacy of past (and current) policies that historically advantaged white guys like us and very explicitly disadvantaged women and people of color?

Slight tangent, I think I've said it everywhere but here already, but everyone should watch 13th on Netflix. I also thought the first two or three parts of the OJ 30 for 30 were a great reminder of the historical context (the parts on the trials itself were good, but less compelling to me).



On this, we will just have to disagree.

I've not seen 13th. But it's been recommended by Hillary haters with wild enthusiasm. She and Bill were quite Republican in the 90s. Somewhere, Lee Atwater rolled in his grave when a Democrat beat him to a term as deliciously racist as "superpredator."

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

We get it. You're better than they are.

I'm better than you who care because while you'll be manipulated, I'll state flatly to anyone who asks, "We're hardly all that different from Putin's Russia. Increasingly, power is the only law."

You'll argue otherwise, I'm sure. But if you boil the current corporatist system to its core, that's our reality.

It's all a game. The fear and loathing of Trump by elite sorts isn't because he's a twisted bigot. It's because he creates volatility. Unpredictability is the one character the oweners of the systems that run your life, mine, and everyone's here, can't abide. It's just perfect for them he also happens to be a flaming lunatic. Were a sober, sensible populist to emerge, they'd have to kill him.

If you still believe in the institutions, you're no better than the rednecks or the true believers at Hillary rallies. I'm a lot more honest than you, and far less self-deluded.

How much money and power do you have? That's the entirety of the value of your life here, and the measure of the leverage and control over it you will enjoy. Politics is bread and circuses. It's an annoyance, an irritant... And it offends me to be impacted by it enough to have to consider it.

ETA: I also feel like a sucker for desiring any sort of reform of this govt or its systems. That is never going to happen. I'm engaging in the worst form of parlor game there. Power will do as it likes, with only mild concessions here and there to keep away unrest.

[SEC_Chick]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

(2) If Trump wins Pennsylvania by 1 vote and you voted for the Libertarian clown, then you were part of the problem, because you made an indulgent gesture instead of casting a vote that would make a difference. Again, if that's your attitude, own it (as you have).

I actually was in the position of having voted for the wrong candidate once in an election that was tied at the end of election night, so maybe this is just a little too real for me. I suspect that HRC will win Pennsylvania and give you the room to vote for a Libertarian.

Before I gave up, I would engage with Trump supporters on twitter. I did not seek it out, but I would retweet something by a NR contributor and then get the obligatory, "Not voting Trump is a vote for Killary!" Many Trump supporters are unable to understand basic math, it seems, that would demonstrate that this is patently untrue, nor were they persuaded that my non-vote for Hillary was by the same logic, a vote for Trump. I was also repeatedly told by Sean Hannity that #NeverTrump owns Hillary and the Supreme Court and all of the atrocities she will commit. As you would expect, Sean Hannity does not respond to reason. You are coming perilously close to Hannity logic here.

Sebby's vote belongs to him and him alone. He owns his own vote, not the collective votes of Hillary or Trump supporters. He has the right to vote as if his own vote is meaningless to the election except as to its impact on his own character. Even in a close election.

Trump was so bad, I could have been persuaded to have voted for almost anyone else (it would have been exceedingly hard to sell me on Stein, but anyone else I took a serious look at). I considered Libertarians, the kooky Constitution Party, other minor parties that have limited ballot access. Heck, if Hillary had gone to the center like Bill did, I could even have been persuaded by her. I would have taken a sane moderate (but positions like advocating for the repeal of the Hyde amendment and "free" college education is not exactly a way to win *me* over). My vote makes a difference to my character, even if it impacts no one else.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

Before I gave up, I would engage with Trump supporters on twitter. I did not seek it out, but I would retweet something by a NR contributor and then get the obligatory, "Not voting Trump is a vote for Killary!" Many Trump supporters are unable to understand basic math, it seems, that would demonstrate that this is patently untrue, nor were they persuaded that my non-vote for Hillary was by the same logic, a vote for Trump. I was also repeatedly told by Sean Hannity that #NeverTrump owns Hillary and the Supreme Court and all of the atrocities she will commit. As you would expect, Sean Hannity does not respond to reason. You are coming perilously close to Hannity logic here.

Sebby's vote belongs to him and him alone. He owns his own vote, not the collective votes of Hillary or Trump supporters. He has the right to vote as if his own vote is meaningless to the election except as to its impact on his own character. Even in a close election.

Trump was so bad, I could have been persuaded to have voted for almost anyone else (it would have been exceedingly hard to sell me on Stein, but anyone else I took a serious look at). I considered Libertarians, the kooky Constitution Party, other minor parties that have limited ballot access. Heck, if Hillary had gone to the center like Bill did, I could even have been persuaded by her. I would have taken a sane moderate (but positions like advocating for the repeal of the Hyde amendment and "free" college education is not exactly a way to win *me* over). My vote makes a difference to my character, even if it impacts no one else.

Of course he owns his vote. But this board is all about owning your logic, too.

Did you end up going for McMullin? I got to say, about the only Republican politicians who come out looking ok this season are Mormon ones (Chaffetz excepted).

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

Before I gave up, I would engage with Trump supporters on twitter. I did not seek it out, but I would retweet something by a NR contributor and then get the obligatory, "Not voting Trump is a vote for Killary!" Many Trump supporters are unable to understand basic math, it seems, that would demonstrate that this is patently untrue, nor were they persuaded that my non-vote for Hillary was by the same logic, a vote for Trump. I was also repeatedly told by Sean Hannity that #NeverTrump owns Hillary and the Supreme Court and all of the atrocities she will commit. As you would expect, Sean Hannity does not respond to reason. You are coming perilously close to Hannity logic here.

Sebby's vote belongs to him and him alone. He owns his own vote, not the collective votes of Hillary or Trump supporters. He has the right to vote as if his own vote is meaningless to the election except as to its impact on his own character. Even in a close election.

Trump was so bad, I could have been persuaded to have voted for almost anyone else (it would have been exceedingly hard to sell me on Stein, but anyone else I took a serious look at). I considered Libertarians, the kooky Constitution Party, other minor parties that have limited ballot access. Heck, if Hillary had gone to the center like Bill did, I could even have been persuaded by her. I would have taken a sane moderate (but positions like advocating for the repeal of the Hyde amendment and "free" college education is not exactly a way to win *me* over). My vote makes a difference to my character, even if it impacts no one else.

Two things:

1. GWNC got me. She's right. I'm not a moderate. I'm a limited, closet idealist on issues of personal freedom and constriction of govt.

2. I voted already, and I voted for liberty. In vain? Sure. But I voted at core for the simple principle you've articulated here: That I have a right not be of any particular tribe. That systemization of us into a society managed by government (and worse, a bought and paid for govt owned by corporate interests) is not "in our better interests."

I voted in recognition of the fact - an irrefutable one - that what made this country, and what we've sadly forgotten, is individual rights. I voted to be left alone, and to protect the rights of my fellow citizens, whether they want them or not, to also be left alone. To not be further micromanaged and irritated by a govt that feels it has the right to intrude upon and infect our lives on every level. I voted against being controlled by an officious bureaucracy any more than absolutely necessary to protect individual rights, including property rights and tolerance of all consensual social behaviors.

I voted for a world of negative rights and few others. And whatever the outcome, I'll sleep as well tonight as I ever have on any other evening.

It feels good. It feels cleansing. And thank god this long national nightmare is finally coming to a close.