I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I've not seen 13th. But it's been recommended by Hillary haters with wild enthusiasm. She and Bill were quite Republican in the 90s. Somewhere, Lee Atwater rolled in his grave when a Democrat beat him to a term as deliciously racist as "superpredator."

The '90s was a different time, and yes, the Clintons had some issues on that front that are addressed in the doc. I wouldn't call it anti-Hillary, though.

[SEC_Chick]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Two things:

1. GWNC got me. She's right. I'm not a moderate. I'm a limited, closet idealist on issues of personal freedom and constriction of govt.

2. I voted already, and I voted for liberty. In vain? Sure. But I voted at core for the simple principle you've articulated here: That I have a right not be of any particular tribe. That systemization of us into a society managed by government (and worse, a bought and paid for govt owned by corporate interests) is not "in our better interests."

I voted in recognition of the fact - an irrefutable one - that what made this country, and what we've sadly forgotten, is individual rights. I voted to be left alone, and to protect the rights of my fellow citizens, whether they want them or not, to also be left alone. To not be further micromanaged and irritated by a govt that feels it has the right to intrude upon and infect our lives on every level. I voted against being controlled by an officious bureaucracy any more than absolutely necessary to protect individual rights, including property rights and tolerance of all consensual social behaviors.

I voted for a world of negative rights and few others. And whatever the outcome, I'll sleep as well tonight as I ever have on any other evening.

It feels good. It feels cleansing. And thank god this long national nightmare is finally coming to a close.

If Gary Johnson had been able to elucidate the principles of liberty and freedom from government as well as you do, I would have voted for him instead of McMullin.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm engaging in the worst form of parlor game there. Power will do as it likes, with only mild concessions here and there to keep away unrest.

Your attitude is definitely the way to make sure that's true.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I voted in recognition of the fact - an irrefutable one - that what made this country, and what we've sadly forgotten, is individual rights.

You know that this is completely ahistorical, right?

Like, on the one hand you're giving us all this "the powerful control everything" and on the other you're trying to pretend that's not always been true.

ETA: I was going to write something longer about how the 20th century history was about a steady decline in the influence of the powerful - be they the rich, the clergy or just the white - in favor of the less power - women, people of color, the poor. Which took - the horror - government intervention. Which we then started to roll back around 2000. But whatever.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm better than you who care because while you'll be manipulated, I'll state flatly to anyone who asks, "We're hardly all that different from Putin's Russia. Increasingly, power is the only law."

You'll argue otherwise, I'm sure. But if you boil the current corporatist system to its core, that's our reality.

It's all a game. The fear and loathing of Trump by elite sorts isn't because he's a twisted bigot. It's because he creates volatility. Unpredictability is the one character the oweners of the systems that run your life, mine, and everyone's here, can't abide. It's just perfect for them he also happens to be a flaming lunatic. Were a sober, sensible populist to emerge, they'd have to kill him.

If you still believe in the institutions, you're no better than the rednecks or the true believers at Hillary rallies. I'm a lot more honest than you, and far less self-deluded.

How much money and power do you have? That's the entirety of the value of your life here, and the measure of the leverage and control over it you will enjoy. Politics is bread and circuses. It's an annoyance, an irritant... And it offends me to be impacted by it enough to have to consider it.

ETA: I also feel like a sucker for desiring any sort of reform of this govt or its systems. That is never going to happen. I'm engaging in the worst form of parlor game there. Power will do as it likes, with only mild concessions here and there to keep away unrest.

As I have said before, I am actually sympathetic to your disdain for our current political system. If you could find the rare political posts I made 12 or so years ago, you would see statements about the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of our two-party system. And I am sympathetic to your view that, if the best the two parties can do is serve up two deeply flawed candidates whom you find thoroughly unappealing or even corrupt, the temptation is strong to just say fuck you and the bullshit you served me. I'll vote for "other" and I will keep voting for "other" until the party I would otherwise likely vote for learns that it needs to do better to deserve my vote. It may be indulgent or even delusional, but I think it is a principled position.

But I am 49 and I feel like this is the most important election I have ever voted in because one candidate has courted, validated, emboldened, and energized dark emotions in our country. Yes, yes, I know that not ALL Trump supporters are misogynistic, xenophobic racists. But a not insignificant portion are, and Trump has, at worst, actively encouraged and, at best, done absolutely nothing to discourage these sentiments and groups. You tend to argue that these issues are distractions because, on their face, these are not pure economic and foreign policy issues, and that is all that is really going to make a difference in the end. But for women, blacks, Mexicans, Muslims, etc., who want to live in a country where they are not persecuted and denigrated because of their gender, race, ethnicity, or religion, these arguments ring hollow. This is what motivates me today.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

You know that this is completely ahistorical, right?

Like, on the one hand you're giving us all this "the powerful control everything" and on the other you're trying to pretend that's not always been true.

ETA: I was going to write something longer about how the 20th century history was about a steady decline in the influence of the powerful - be they the rich, the clergy or just the white - in favor of the less power - women, people of color, the poor. Which took - the horror - government intervention. Which we then started to roll back around 2000. But whatever.

Power is always the ultimate rule. In everything.

But it hasn't always been such an overwhelming mix of govt and corporate interests, working together (not in a conspiracy, but along complimentary lines, intentionally and not) driving us toward such a systemized, European style of govt.

I don't want to live in a country where deference to the state is expected. Where we all are part of govt controlled wealth and transfer allocation systems. I don't want to live in a crony capitalist banana republic run by either a Head Nanny or a Head Demagogue.

The powerful are still there. They're just underground. And they're not overtly trying to control anyone or anything. They're merely gaming the system -- using the govt, often working within in it, to siphon all the power and money to themselves.

I understand being appalled by Trump. I am appalled by Trump. But while you're worrying about his gross tendencies and social views, the truly powerful are robbing you blind. They're looking at you, voting emotionally, to provide the the bloc that keeps getting stuffed suits like Hillary or Jeb elected to office. They don't care if a D or an R wins. They just want to keep the status quo chugging along -- to keep the govt that guards their control mechanisms, many of which are regulatory, and statutory, in place.

We all feel like we're insulated, like we're doing fine. And it's probably true for the near future. But long term, we're frogs in the tea kettle. By the time we do something meaningful about the capture of our govt, it'll be too late.

There's a much bigger inequality out there, and you're not on the winning side, my friend. Not by a fucking long shot.

You were offered a choice of puppets. You've been offered a choice of puppets for many years. One good thing about Trump and Hillary? They degraded this sham process so badly it now receives the utter lack of respect it deserves.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Carlin on "The American Dream:"

"Forget the politicians. They are irrelevant. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice! You have OWNERS! They OWN YOU. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls.

They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying, lobbying, to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don’t want:

They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. Thats against their interests.

Thats right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fucking years ago. They don’t want that!

You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shitty jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you sooner or later cause they own this fucking place! It's a big club, and you ain’t in it! You, and I, are not in the big club.

By the way, it's the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table has tilted folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care! Good honest hard-working people; white collar, blue collar it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard-working people continue, these are people of modest means, continue to elect these rich cock suckers who don’t give a fuck about you….they don’t give a fuck about you… they don’t give a FUCK about you.

They don’t care about you at all… at all… AT ALL. And nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Thats what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick thats being jammed up their assholes everyday, because the owners of this country know the truth.

It's called the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it."

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

That was quite ridiculous. Someone should lose a job for that.

We can agree on that, for sure.

TM

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

But it hasn't always been such an overwhelming mix of govt and corporate interests, working together

No, it hasn't. There was a time when we used government to try to draw back corporate (and other elite) power. Then we stopped because the era of big government was over and it was time to make government work for business.

driving us toward such a systemized, European style of govt.

Um, what??? Corporate-cooped government is driving us in exactly the opposite direction.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

No, it hasn't. There was a time when we used government to try to draw back corporate (and other elite) power. Then we stopped because the era of big government was over and it was time to make government work for business.

As a moderate quasi-libertarian, I have no problem with laws hemming in big business where it becomes, as it has now, an independent shadow govt. Particularly when it becomes so intertwined with govt that it's writing the fucking laws!

Um, what??? Corporate-cooped government is driving us in exactly the opposite direction.

You have to separate big and small business. Big business loves regulation. Banking whines about it, but only because banking is filled with shameless sorts who'll flagrantly talk out of both sides of their mouth to hedge their bets. For most big businesses, regulation/licensing/compliance are barriers to entry, big business's own form of protectionism.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Let me get this straight: Not voting for Trump is inadequate. I must vote for Hillary?

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

So now unless I vote for Hillary I'm aiding and abetting sexism and making women feel bad?

Did I have a similar obligation in 2008 because Obama was the first Black President?

Good grief. Two things.

1. Her post is about her. Can you read it and process the significance of the message and the emotion she is having without turning the focus on yourself?

2. We need to rid ourselves of the idea that voting is a cathartic, aspirational act meant to bring you a level of satisfaction on every issue you hold dear. It's not. It's a means to an end. It's a pragmatic tool at every level. It's the same as going to the eye doctor from the minute the process starts. This or that. This one or that one. Which is better? One or two?

Because this country is made up of many different people with many different opinions based on many different issues which are influenced in ton of different ways, there is no perfect candidate. It's always going to be a choice between imperfect candidates.

I have no problem with the desired goal of finding a candidate for whom voting feels like a gentle hug from a baby polar bear, but when you realize that person doesn't exist (or can't get elected because there aren't enough people who value exactly what you value for them to be the nominee), shake it off and vote for the person who (i) shares your views on most issues and (ii) will do the least harm to the most people. You shouldn't sit and pout on the sidelines like a little baby if you don't get your way completely. You shouldn't throw away your vote in some ridiculous message you think is being sent to candidates who aren't paying attention to your insignificant protest.

Sometimes things align and you get a candidate that cares about the same things you do almost completely down the line--a candidate who may look like you or who worships like you or who is eloquent when it comes to things you care about. In that case, great! You win. You get both. But voting is about being practical, not satisfying your fragile soul. That's why we consider it a civic duty.

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

As I have said before, I am actually sympathetic to your disdain for our current political system. If you could find the rare political posts I made 12 or so years ago, you would see statements about the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of our two-party system. And I am sympathetic to your view that, if the best the two parties can do is serve up two deeply flawed candidates whom you find thoroughly unappealing or even corrupt, the temptation is strong to just say fuck you and the bullshit you served me. I'll vote for "other" and I will keep voting for "other" until the party I would otherwise likely vote for learns that it needs to do better to deserve my vote. It may be indulgent or even delusional, but I think it is a principled position.

But I am 49 and I feel like this is the most important election I have ever voted in because one candidate has courted, validated, emboldened, and energized dark emotions in our country. Yes, yes, I know that not ALL Trump supporters are misogynistic, xenophobic racists. But a not insignificant portion are, and Trump has, at worst, actively encouraged and, at best, done absolutely nothing to discourage these sentiments and groups. You tend to argue that these issues are distractions because, on their face, these are not pure economic and foreign policy issues, and that is all that is really going to make a difference in the end. But for women, blacks, Mexicans, Muslims, etc., who want to live in a country where they are not persecuted and denigrated because of their gender, race, ethnicity, or religion, these arguments ring hollow. This is what motivates me today.

I can't argue with anyone voting for Hillary on that basis. A lot of that is what made it impossible for me to vote for Trump. My chief reason is he simply is not up to the job. Behind that is the fact that he's playing to many of dumbest sentiments, which also happen to be some of the most loathsome.

[Not Bob]

I hope tonight is not like Election Night 2000 (although I did enjoy chatting on Yahoo Messenger with tax_hottie about the morons in Florida). Anyway, I think we can all (regardless of political views) mostly agree that I am mainly correct when I say that 2000 was an electoral clusterfuck of the first order.

I also hope it's not like Election Night 2004, our first election on LawTalkers, with all of the hubaballo about Diebold machines and Ohio. I think that was the year of Bilmore's bee-swarm analogy. Sniff. Why, bilmore, why?

I very much hope it's not like Election Night 2008, the night that we almost lost fringey for good. I hope she's doing well.

Finally, I hope it's not like Election Night 2012 in terms of the bile that came forth by some on Fox (hi, Karl Rove) who were living in a bubble about the projections. I do hope it's like 2012 in that the result was clear and known fairly early.

Carry on.

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

But I am 49 and I feel like this is the most important election I have ever voted in because one candidate has courted, validated, emboldened, and energized dark emotions in our country. Yes, yes, I know that not ALL Trump supporters are misogynistic, xenophobic racists. But a not insignificant portion are, and Trump has, at worst, actively encouraged and, at best, done absolutely nothing to discourage these sentiments and groups. You tend to argue that these issues are distractions because, on their face, these are not pure economic and foreign policy issues, and that is all that is really going to make a difference in the end. But for women, blacks, Mexicans, Muslims, etc., who want to live in a country where they are not persecuted and denigrated because of their gender, race, ethnicity, or religion, these arguments ring hollow. This is what motivates me today.

Yup.

[ferrets_bueller]

I loathe him because I am the same age as he is. I got drafted, saw combat, and he hired a doctor to get him out of the draft so that other people could go in his stead. And the bastard then said he always wanted a Purple Heart. Calling out John McCain? Making fun of a Gold Star Mother?

I loathe him because he and his father consistently discriminated against some people who had every right to live in his buildings.

I loathe him because he defrauded people into contracts and just blatantly stiffed them because he had economic leverage.

I loathe him for his contempt of taxpayers who will never earn in a lifetime the amount he spends on himself in a year.

I loathe him because he literally denied his own statements. The instances are too numerous to count.

I loathe him because his misogyny knows no bounds. And his lizardlike son shares that view, as proven by his emails.

I loathe him because he debases everything he touches. He is beneath contempt.

I loathe him for his willful ignorance, his race-baiting, and his divisiveness.

In a campaign of many months he had one and only one heartfelt, spontaneously superb moment: When he called out Ted Cruz and his disparagement of "New York Values" by referencing the first responders at the World Trade Center. And he couldn't even get that fully straight: Remember those thousands of people cheering the collapse of the towers in New Jersey?

I pulled the lever for Hillary notwithstanding her baggage, her greed, and her many other serious flaws. She deserves her low approval ratings, even though she was a pretty good Secretary of State. It wasn't even a close call.

Tammy Duckworth for President 2020.