Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

There's no essential fallacy in what you're saying, just a semantic quibble about the word "privilege" and whether your baseline is normative or positive. We are privileged to be treated in a way that most people are not treated.

This gets to the root of my issue. We are not a special minority. The minorities at issue are the actual ones who are being treated unfairly due to sex, race, ethnicity, etc. (They are literally, mathematically, the minorities here.) People like us are part of the majority. You and I are not part of some select group. We're the common, the norm. "Privilege" is a necessarily loaded term which people intentionally use where they ought to be using "lucky" or "fortunate."

I do think, though, that you're missing a huge dynamic, which is that status is relative, and the significance of the behavior that we're talking about here is not that it falls below some standard in an absolute sense, but that it's meant on some level to reinforce a hierarchy of sorts in which white men are generally at the top. There's no point in being the king if you don't have any subjects.

I don't think I'm missing that. I believe I addressed that when I said everyone has a duty to attempt to remedy systems which are designed to keep certain people below others based on discriminatory criteria.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I have to say, it is incredibly sad to witness an educated person fight tooth and nail against how one labels the concept that they are in a better position than those he knows for a fact are in a worse position.

"It's all a matter of perspective. And in order for me to not be completely disrespectful and dismissive, use mine. Don't say I'm privileged, because I don't like thinking about it that way. Say you're underprivileged. Then I'll engage."

What a fucking asshole.

And it's so classic. It is the fundamental game plan white people employ to avoid shit they don't like. Take the word that is used as shorthand to define a problem, vilify the word, ignore the issue. "Feminist?" Man-hater. Can't deal. "Politically correct?" Ugh. I can't say anything anymore. "Privilege?" I'm not privileged. I'm normal. This concept is dumb.

Notice that he's not really arguing over the fact that there is clearly a difference in how he's treated. He just doesn't like that the word to describe that difference focuses on him and what he gets instead of others and what they don't get. Can't take it. It's not his fault he was born into a system that benefits him (which won't change until he agrees not to always exercise those benefits and sure as hell won't change if he won't even acknowledge them as benefits).

And while I appreciate Hank's story (and fully understand how he used it to make his point), the fact that this one absolutely ridiculous example of a white person talking about not benefiting from privilege (and I've never, ever seen anything like what he says happened in his story) sticks with him given the literally countless stories of white people exercising their privilege to their own benefit, says something, no?

TM

You may argue with me. But now you're trending into judging me. That you may not do.

And you may certainly not suggest that I am availing myself of privileges at cost to another. That's accusing me of perpetuating a problem. As one who's never engaged in a discriminatory act, and has actually said some pretty coarse things to those I've witnessed doing so, and as somebody who finds the whole notion of discrmination based on criteria like race, sex, ethnicity, or sexuality utterly moronic and intellectually offensive, that's unwarranted.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

You may argue with me. But now you're trending into judging me. That you may not do.

Wait. How long have you been here?

People, what do we think about someone being this thick?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I have to say, it is incredibly sad to witness an educated person fight tooth and nail against how one labels the concept that they are in a better position than those he knows for a fact are in a worse position.

"It's all a matter of perspective. And in order for me to not be completely disrespectful and dismissive, use mine. Don't say I'm privileged, because I don't like thinking about it that way. Say you're underprivileged. Then I'll engage."

What a fucking privileged asshole.

TM

I hope you'll take this as a friendly amendment to your post.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

I think you mostly get the concept; you just don't like the terminology that the kids are using these days. We straight white guys in the soft alcoholism of middle age are used to thinking about "privilege" as some special and unique gift for certain individuals. So we bristle at the idea that the grandson of an Irish stone cutter who came to the US via Ellis Island, and the son of a blue collar Union guy, is "privileged" in the same way that a Princeton legacy admitted WASP whose name has Roman numerals is "privileged."

But we are. In all sorts of ways, big and small. Senior government officials getting pulled over for driving while black. White lawyers assuming black female lawyers at a deposition are the court reporters. A black female cop came onto my crowded subway (shhh!) the other day, and bumped two or three of us as she walked by. I got an "excuse me, sir" but she didn't say anything to the black guy in a suit standing next to me. Silly example, but there you go.

Apparently, NB, I'm actively perpetuating the bad system. Though it's unspecified, I'm somehow availing myself of benefits at cost to another. (Nevermind concrete steps I've actually taken against it.)

This is what I meant when I said "loaded" term. I'm guilty of availing myself of benefits at cost to another. I'll leave you, or someone else, to explain what they were, and how that was an intentional bad act on my part, and I guess your part, and also the part of everyone else who happens to fit into the "privileged" category.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Wait. How long have you been here?

People, what do we think about someone being this thick?

Roughly what we think of someone being as comedically challenged as you?

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Apparently, NB, I'm actively perpetuating the bad system. Though it's unspecified, I'm somehow availing myself of benefits at cost to another. (Nevermind concrete steps I've actually taken against it.)

This is what I meant when I said "loaded" term. I'm guilty of something. I'll leave you, or someone else, to explain what it is.

Sebby, I took TM's point to be a version of the well-known, true yet hard to hear (at least for me), slogan - if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

I'm certainly Not Perfect, and I admit that I (like America) don't live up to my ideals. I'm working on it.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

That's accusing me of perpetuating a problem.

If you can't accept that fact that you benefit from your privileges, then yes, you're perpetuating a problem.

As one who's never engaged in a discriminatory act

If you think this is true, you are lying to yourself. Or you're a unicorn.

Maybe it was a small thing - like crossing the street out of concern for your safety upon encountering some young black men at night - but you'd truly be unique if you've completely escaped our racist culture.

ETA: All any of us can do it be Not Bob. We're not perfect, but we're working on it. But you can't work on it if you can't admit you're not perfect.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

You may argue with me. But now you're trending into judging me. That you may not do.

And you may certainly not suggest that I am availing myself of privileges at cost to another. That's accusing me of perpetuating a problem. As one who's never engaged in a discriminatory act, and has actually said some pretty coarse things to those I've witnessed doing so, and as somebody who finds the whole notion of discrmination based on criteria like race, sex, ethnicity or sexuality utterly moronic and intellectually offensive, that's a step too far.

First, stop whining. No one is calling you a racist.

Second, you think of privilege as something that is as easily measured as it would be in a one-off situation. "I got an extra donut that someone else didn't get today." That's not it.

Privilege is about walking into an interview and knowing you will be judged by people who look like you based solely on your actual qualifications. Privilege is about calling the cops and having them (i) show up in a reasonable amount of time, (ii) automatically identify you as the victim upon arrival, (iii) empathizing with whatever problem you have, and (iv) knowing you won't be in danger. Privilege is being a defendant and having the jury make a decision on your guilt or innocence based solely on the fucking facts they've been presented. Privilege is about opening a magazine or turning on a tv and seeing a standard of beauty defined by Nordic features and not even noticing. Privilege is telling everyone that if they want your attention when it comes to talking about privilege, that they should figure out how to talk about it without hurting your feelings.

Finally, stick your "don't judge me" complaint in your ass. I will judge you based on things you say every day, all day. There is no such thing as not judging someone. There is only not revealing that you're judging someone. So if you don't want to be judged negatively, don't say stupid shit.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Apparently, NB, I'm actively perpetuating the bad system. Though it's unspecified, I'm somehow availing myself of benefits at cost to another. (Nevermind concrete steps I've actually taken against it.)

This is what I meant when I said "loaded" term. I'm guilty of availing myself of benefits at cost to another. I'll leave you, or someone else, to explain what they were, and how that was an intentional bad act on my part, and I guess your part, and also the part of everyone else who happens to fit into the "privileged" category.

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

Sebby, I took TM's point to be a version of the well-known, true yet hard to hear (at least for me), slogan - if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

I'm certainly Not Perfect, and I admit that I (like America) don't live up to my ideals. I'm working on it.

It's more than that. There's a suggestion that there are some benefits certain people are knowingly accepting, knowing it's at cost to to others, and there's a duty for these recipients to stop receiving it. What are those benefits? Can you define them?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

This gets to the root of my issue. We are not a special minority. The minorities at issue are the actual ones who are being treated unfairly due to sex, race, ethnicity, etc. (They are literally, mathematically, the minorities here.) People like us are part of the majority. You and I are not part of some select group. We're the common, the norm. "Privilege" is a necessarily loaded term which people intentionally use where they ought to be using "lucky" or "fortunate."

In almost any population, straight white men are a minority.

I think you're assuming that the denominator here is the population of the USA, and that the numerator is whites. There's nothing magic about that denominator, and no particular reason to pick that single characteristic as the numerator -- obviously, you can talk about whatever fraction you want, but it's a choice, and for some reason it's important to you to use a framing that puts you in the majority and makes you the norm. If you insist on that, whatever, but then it's your choice to frame things in a way that makes "privilege" a semantic misstep. Why does it matter to you to be the norm?

I don't think I'm missing that. I believe I addressed that when I said everyone has a duty to attempt to remedy systems which are designed to keep certain people below others based on discriminatory criteria.

Nice to hear you say that, no sarcasm. You do post a lot of things that would lead others to think it's not much of a duty.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

Sebby, I took TM's point to be a version of the well-known, true yet hard to hear (at least for me), slogan - if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

I'm certainly Not Perfect, and I admit that I (like America) don't live up to my ideals. I'm working on it.

Look. I'm not an idiot. I realize people aren't going to just freely give up a good situation. I benefit relative to dark-skinned people because I am very light-skinned. I am less threatening to white people (and Asians, etc., hell, even black people). But I recognize that shit. Did I get a good job out of law school over a dark-skinned black man or woman because of my light skin? Probably not. Can I recognize that generally speaking I have a better chance of getting a good job than dark-skinned people? Yes.

Ask yourself (not just Notbob) this: Who at your firm or company works on diversity issues? Is it a black woman? Is it a person of color? Who is trying to figure out how to increase the numbers of people of color who have access to firm decision-making? Why is it that diversity and inclusion issues ones that people of color and the lgbt community have to fight for? It's because white people look at it like it's not their problem to cure. When a white person stands up and says, "Wait a second, this is ridiculous. Let's do something about it." Applause. Amazement. Parties thrown. It's noteworthy.

You know the best way to get white people to engage when it comes to diversity issues? Give them awards. You know how we get lgbt and people of color to engage? Ask them. That's privilege.

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Look. I'm not an idiot. I realize people aren't going to just freely give up a good situation. I benefit relative to dark-skinned people because I am very light-skinned. I am less threatening to white people (and Asians, etc., hell, even black people). But I recognize that shit. Did I get a good job out of law school over a dark-skinned black man or woman because of my light skin? Probably not. Can I recognize that generally speaking I have a better chance of getting a good job than dark-skinned people? Yes.

Ask yourself (not just Notbob) this: Who at your firm or company works on diversity issues? Is it a black woman? Is it a person of color? Who is trying to figure out how to increase the numbers of people of color who have access to firm decision-making? Why is it that diversity and inclusion issues ones that people of color and the lgbt community have to fight for? It's because white people look at it like it's not their problem to cure. When a white person stands up and says, "Wait a second, this is ridiculous. Let's do something about it." Applause. Amazement. Parties thrown. It's noteworthy.

You know the best way to get white people to engage when it comes to diversity issues? Give them awards. You know how we get lgbt and people of color to engage? Ask them. That's privilege.

TM

I would like to give you the first Self Employed Fluffer Lawtalkers PB Award for the encouragement of diversity.

I named it for Fluffer because em brought a diversity of genders to the board with em's different socks.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I would like to give you the first Self Employed Fluffer Lawtalkers PB Award for the encouragement of diversity.

I named it for Fluffer because em brought a diversity of genders to the board with em's different socks.

I'm not entirely sure I get it.

Also, you just reminded me...we have a monthly 30 minute get-to-know-a-woman-partner session at the firm where the Woman's Initiative--seeking to give some exposure to women partners and helping the firm get a better understanding of the issues they face as women--interviews one of the women partners.

You know who shows up? Women and minorities.

TM