Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

(though I think some were made in Canada, but that's practically same, right?).

Amuricans seem to think so. Canadians, in my (limited) experience, not so much.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

Oh, you mean like those Toyotas built in Tennessee and the Hondas from Ohio, right?

This points up something important. I really have trouble with this whole discussion of how Wal-Mart is creating pricing pressures that result in offshoring jobs to China. Yes, they are. So what? That's capitalism for you. And it's a good thing -- several hundred million people have been lifted out of poverty as a result, and China is now a consumer of goods and services from the US and other developed countries that are based on high value-added labor.

Yes, we have to watch for currency manipulation, and have decent wage laws that are enforced. But overall, lower prices are not bad, and having poor people do shitty manufacturing work is not bad.

The car plants show that sophisticated value-added manufacturing can be done here. And that the real problem with the auto industry was far less due to workers getting paid a decent amount, but to execs building crappy cars.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

This points up something important. I really have trouble with this whole discussion of how Wal-Mart is creating pricing pressures that result in offshoring jobs to China. Yes, they are. So what? That's capitalism for you. And it's a good thing -- several hundred million people have been lifted out of poverty as a result, and China is now a consumer of goods and services from the US and other developed countries that are based on high value-added labor.

Yes, we have to watch for currency manipulation, and have decent wage laws that are enforced. But overall, lower prices are not bad, and having poor people do shitty manufacturing work is not bad.

The car plants show that sophisticated value-added manufacturing can be done here. And that the real problem with the auto industry was far less due to workers getting paid a decent amount, but to execs building crappy cars.

i believe lots of the southern "foreign" plants are non-Union, and I do believe the jobs here are mainly assembling foreign made parts. I know the big three beat up suppliers so all the $25/hour jobs are now $10/hour. But let's all keep jacking ourselves because Honda builds cars in Tennessee!

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

i believe lots of the southern "foreign" plants are non-Union, and I do believe the jobs here are mainly assembling foreign made parts. I know the big three beat up suppliers so all the $25/hour jobs are now $10/hour. But let's all keep jacking ourselves because Honda builds cars in Tennessee!

You don't see the difference between "we cannot operate our plants if there is a union" and "we'd rather not have to deal with a union"?

And you don't think that the choices American car companies made in the 70s, of continuing to produce gas guzzlers and shitty cars, had anything to do with their loss of position?

Of course you don't. You are Hank.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

You don't see the difference between "we cannot operate our plants if there is a union" and "we'd rather not have to deal with a union"?

And you don't think that the choices American car companies made in the 70s, of continuing to produce gas guzzlers and shitty cars, had anything to do with their loss of position?

Of course you don't. You are Hank.

Well I worked in D factories in those days, but sounds like your blogs tell the story better so I'll take your word?


Edit: and the designs may well have been part of the choice, but then companies didn't need to buy US Steel, Japanese steel was fine. And electronics then became fair game too. Did US steel company owners make poor design decisions? We're US TVs somehow the wrong kind?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Well I worked in D factories in those days, but sounds like your blogs tell the story better so I'll take your word?


Edit: and the designs may well have been part of the choice, but then companies didn't need to buy US Steel, Japanese steel was fine. And electronics then became fair game too. Did US steel company owners make poor design decisions? We're US TVs somehow the wrong kind?

Do you think non-unionized workers in the US could have competed with third-world manufacturing in the 1970s? That non-unionized auto workers in Detroit could have competed with Mexican labor?

There are certainly unions who demanded too much and didn't see what globalization would do to their bargaining power. (That is notwithstanding that union demands helped build the middle class and move away from the gross overexploitation that had persisted before, and was such a factor in the depression.) But to suggest that unions are the only thing limiting US ability to compete with third world labor, in labor-intensive industries, is nonsense.

Do you attribute the fact that so much electronics manufacturing moved to Korea, and then to China, to the overreaching demands of those powerful Japanese trade unions? And the powerful Korean unions?

Did Nike move to Vietnam to avoid Chinese unions?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

I know Wal-Mart is a favorite enemy in these stories, and the animus is often directed at least in part at those who shop there. But when you have $20 and you have to make it last four days until your next check arrives, the $10 free-range, antibiotic free organic chicken from Whole Paycheck doesn't really work as a viable option.

My days of living on $15 a week were accomplished through farmers markets, food coops, and very large sacks of rice and dried beans bought at little ethnic stores. All both tastier and cheaper than big box stores.

Of course, $15 was worth more then.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

Sorry for my lack of clarity. I wasn't trying to minimize what happened at Walmart. And , yes, forcing people to work off the clock is most definitely an example of fucking the workers out of money.

But working at a big box retailer is very different from working in a nail salon. At least places like Walmart pretend to obey the wage and hours laws. Maybe it's just the apparent willful disregard of those laws by the salon owners (as described in the article) that got to me. And the fact that, even when the workers win, they never collect. Anyway, Earnest Not Bob will try to get off of the topic.

Yes, the nail salons can attract attention and get clamped down on. Walmart, however, just continues to gain market share.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Well I worked in D factories in those days, but sounds like your blogs tell the story better so I'll take your word?


Edit: and the designs may well have been part of the choice, but then companies didn't need to buy US Steel, Japanese steel was fine. And electronics then became fair game too. Did US steel company owners make poor design decisions? We're US TVs somehow the wrong kind?

I've never bought anything but an American car myself, so I do vote on this issue with my pocketbook. But at a point when unions are besieged from every direction, legal and economic, in the US and Europe, what we need more than ever are similar organizations in China, India and elsewhere making sure people there get a fair wage and good working conditions. That's whats going to figure out whether our children and grandchildren scrape by with jobs at Walmarts and Wumarts run for the benefit of the megawealthy or get to be well-healed professionals futzing around on the internet all day.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

Do you think non-unionized workers in the US could have competed with third-world manufacturing in the 1970s? That non-unionized auto workers in Detroit could have competed with Mexican labor?

There are certainly unions who demanded too much and didn't see what globalization would do to their bargaining power. (That is notwithstanding that union demands helped build the middle class and move away from the gross overexploitation that had persisted before, and was such a factor in the depression.) But to suggest that unions are the only thing limiting US ability to compete with third world labor, in labor-intensive industries, is nonsense.

Do you attribute the fact that so much electronics manufacturing moved to Korea, and then to China, to the overreaching demands of those powerful Japanese trade unions? And the powerful Korean unions?

Did Nike move to Vietnam to avoid Chinese unions?

Umm once Americans were willing to buy foreign no one in America could compete on price.

I don't know where you got that I was bashing unions, but Rave On!

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

Now is when I smile smugly about never having gotten a pedicure and never shopping at Walmart.

(You just keep your mouth shut about how Target and every clothing retailer does the same stuff).

Here is where you and I have a rare moment of near total agreement. Walmart's a depressing shit show of a store. I have been there, but generally, I avoid the place at all costs. I don't want to see the people in it or patronize the greed-addled degenerates who own it.

As to pedicures, manicures, shoe shines, and the like - fuck all that, as well. Nobody patronizing those institutions can claim ignorance. We all know damn well the people doing that work are being paid like shit, and the work is by definition demeaning. Manage your own cuticles. Shine you own shoes. Too many of the people who go in for these sorts of "personal concierge" services get off on the idea of having someone service them. They're all about complaining if the waitress is a bit slow, getting a caddie to carry their tiny travel golf bag, pushing the cleaning lady to do more than is polite, etc. Too many people with a taste for "personal service" are all about enforcing power on another. There's a special ring in hell for these sorts.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Umm once Americans were willing to buy foreign no one in America could compete on price.

Are you saying that American willingness to buy foreign occurred sometime after foreign manufacturers were able to provide products that were good value for the price?

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I don't know where you got that I was bashing unions, but Rave On!

Sure seemed that way. And you so often do. But I guess you were adopting the Detroit Big 3 line of blaming consumers for looking for good value for their money. Confirming my earlier point.

As for the Big 3's cynical advertising "Buy American! [from our factories in Mexico]", well, okay.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Here is where you and I have a rare moment of near total agreement. Walmart's a depressing shit show of a store. I have been there, but generally, I avoid the place at all costs. I don't want to see the people in it or patronize the greed-addled degenerates who own it.

As to pedicures, manicures, shoe shines, and the like - fuck all that, as well. Nobody patronizing those institutions can claim ignorance. We all know damn well the people doing that work are being paid like shit, and the work is by definition demeaning. Manage your own cuticles. Shine you own shoes. Too many of the people who go in for these sorts of "personal concierge" services get off on the idea of having someone service them. They're all about complaining if the waitress is a bit slow, getting a caddie to carry their tiny travel golf bag, pushing the cleaning lady to do more than is polite, etc. Too many people with a taste for "personal service" are all about enforcing power on another. There's a special ring in hell for these sorts.

I tip my strippers well, so I feel exempt from this kind of damnation.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

Are you saying that American willingness to buy foreign occurred sometime after foreign manufacturers were able to provide products that were good value for the price?

Sure, and products that worked. The only way to have supported the high wages was blind buying of US made products, all products. I grew up in a home where we would not buy anything "made in Japan."

Sure seemed that way. And you so often do. But I guess you were adopting the Detroit Big 3 line of blaming consumers for looking for good value for their money. Confirming my earlier point.

The $$$ value COMBINED with US quality and fuel economy and options was finally enough to break the wall keeping everyone buying US.

My cousin was the first in my family to break out, to quote him:

People tell me if I buy a Japanese car I'll put 3 US workers out of work. Yeah, 2 pump gas and one fixes cars.

And you can blame fuel and options on management, but the quality was a result of worker apathy. I was there so I know what I'm talking about, but you carry on seeing the entire UAW work force as 100% loyal salt-of-the-Earth workers sitting around at lunch wishing that management would finally make the cars folks want!

As for the Big 3's cynical advertising "Buy American! [from our factories in Mexico]", well, okay.

I'm not sure what this means, you're saying today the argument is cynical? Sure. It's also why people pointing to the import factories in the South are wrong too.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

As to pedicures, manicures, shoe shines, and the like - fuck all that, as well. Nobody patronizing those institutions can claim ignorance. We all know damn well the people doing that work are being paid like shit, and the work is by definition demeaning. Manage your own cuticles. Shine you own shoes. Too many of the people who go in for these sorts of "personal concierge" services get off on the idea of having someone service them. They're all about complaining if the waitress is a bit slow, getting a caddie to carry their tiny travel golf bag, pushing the cleaning lady to do more than is polite, etc. Too many people with a taste for "personal service" are all about enforcing power on another. There's a special ring in hell for these sorts.

Don't forget lawn services and landscaping. Mitt Romney was cool enough to say Hola! to his yard workers and hang with them a bit, but then he was shocked -SHOCKED! - when they were discovered to be poorly paid illegals.