Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

What about the woman who “has to go” on Nat Guard duty? What if she gets called up when there is a crisis? Actually she will?

2. Williamson/Gabbard 2020!

(Ty’s in tight with Sauron. Tread lightly.)

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I’ve had it. Williamson 2020!

This is pretty much what I expected you'd do.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

So I finished the book. I was sidetracked by three others I'm also reading, the best of which is Michael Pollan's awesome How to Change Your Mind. (Best argument for why one must eat psychedelics, even into middle age and beyond, to keep the software in the mind nimble, and avoid falling into rote, repetitive thinking many of us mistake for "wisdom of experience." Highly recommended.)

But as to WF, I quite enjoyed the book. From a technical perspective, the argument is well delivered and well organized. There is some repetition, but I think it might be by design, given she's writing to a probably defensive audience that may need the points made reinforced a few times.

On substance, she explains institutional racism so well I don't think anyone could argue against its existence. Anyone raising the argument that we are a post-racial society should be given a copy of the book.

There were a lot of great insights, but if I had to pick one chapter that distilled them all to the best example of fragility, it'd be the white women's tears chapter. That captured the narcissism that underpins institutional racism. And the cluelessness. It's an amazing phenomenon -- a white person becoming upset and elevating their emotional state over the person actually experiencing the racism. We typically think of minorities being compelled to stay quiet by force. In reality, they're probably more dissuaded from doing so because they're usually ignored, or have the conversation hijacked to a discussion about the white person's response to their raising the issue of racism. This could be called "black exhaustion at white narcissism." I found this to be almost comedic in an absurd and macabre sense. "Enough about how this racism is impacting you... Let's talk about how talking about it impacts me." Larry David could write that line.

Another point I really enjoyed was the argument against our meritocratic myth. That moronic fairy tale precludes us from having frank discussions about everything from racism to inequality. Anyone raising that should be given this book along with a copy of Fooled by Randomness.

My takeaway from the book is that, for a lazy sort such as myself, the least one can do is speak frankly about racism when talking to other whites and shut up and listen if a black person is talking about racism. Don't preclude enlightenment on the subject from someone facing it directly. You'll never have the same angle on it, or anywhere near the same level of experience with it, as will he. To have that back and forth, however, whites are going to have to drop the habit of avoiding discussions of racism because they are uncomfortable, which in turn causes blacks to avoid discussing it with whites with the necessary level of candor.

I liked the book. Technically and substantively. Well done.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

I suggest you ask the people who make those loans if they thought that before the GOP gutted it.

They're just greedy. Any regulation is too much regulation. And when you have the White House, you can't let the opportunity to stack the deck as much in your favor as possible lapse.

Sure, if you think the people buying cheap products from China aren't getting any benefit. Paying less for stuff is, indeed, an economic benefit.

"Sorry you've been rendered obsolete and will only earn 1/2 to 2/3 of what you did before (and work like a dog for it). But look on the bright side. Your appliances and video game consoles are 20% cheaper!

...Sorry. Good food's still expensive. But then, you can always eat the processed crap. It'll give you high blood pressure or cancer, which will free you from this merry-go-round sooner."

Except no one made that choice. Nearly everyone making policy believed there was no direct trade off, because every trade deal and all available evidence said there wasn't one.

Then China joined the WTO and we learned that if there's a big enough change in trade terms, you can't get the effects that you're focused on. But the thing is that was a one time event (and appears to be over) and not nearly as big of scale as you want to make it out to be.

What have people done to address this policy error? Nothing serious. The unspoken reality we all know is: Globalization and automation are inevitable, and they're going to savage a majority of workers in developed nations first, then less developed nation later. Labor is an endangered species -- a cost sought to be eliminated by all means available.

Now sing me a song about how new jobs will be created in amounts and at pay far in excess of the old jobs. I need some of that Classic Adder Econ 101 Bullshit.

The Dems could be advocating for a lot more help. Some of them are. That is very much a point of the Green New Deal. It's the other side that's for doing nothing.

A New New Deal of which the Green New Deal (modified to remove AOC's insane mandates) is a small component, is needed. The Green New Deal alone is a joke.

You don't even try to not sound like you're full of shit.

Builders don't use "Chinese steel" as a pejorative for no reason. I recently had an HVAC unit replaced for one zone. I wanted to buy the big one, but was advised against it on the grounds, "It's all Chinese shit that'll break in ten years... don't waste the money." The unit in the other zone, made by Trane, with non-Chinese parts: 27 years old and still running. We just bought new clothes washers and dryers. People at Home Depot said the same thing. "Chinese shit." A very close friend and a family member are interior designers. Ask them about new furnishings made in China. You guessed it: "Chinese shit." Ask your mechanic. "Shit."

They make a lot of things well. But they make just many awfully, cheaply, and it's almost impossible not to conclude, designed to break, blow up, or otherwise require replacement within a short period of time.

Strangely, however, they seem to make clothes really well. I have a couple sportcoats made there, and they are really well stitched.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

You asserted my citing similarities between the parties was ill advised and counterproductive. I explained why I disagree. My response could not have been more on the nose. What you are actually having an issue with here, I suspect, is my refusal to accept the predicate that the parties are indeed materially different (in impact most notably) on the big economic issues.

They aren’t. And I since don’t accept that threshold argument, I certainly can’t agree that noting this huge similarity I did is cynical or counterproductive. I’d call it candor.

No, I quoted you suggesting that the parties are sometimes materially different. ("The losers get fucked by both parties. Worse by the GOP, of course.") If it really matters to you on some level that people are getting fucked, then the differences should matter too.

If you don't give a shit about what you're describing, just continue with the cheap cynicism. It's a schtick, and it's certainly easier than engaging.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

It’s crazy that Ty calls people a troll. Then in the next post he says trump is trying to deflect.

What?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

No, I quoted you suggesting that the parties are sometimes materially different. ("The losers get fucked by both parties. Worse by the GOP, of course.") If it really matters to you on some level that people are getting fucked, then the differences should matter too.

If you don't give a shit about what you're describing, just continue with the cheap cynicism. It's a schtick, and it's certainly easier than engaging.

Oh, you're fixated on the delta between the levels of fucking. Got it. The GOP favors letting your job go abroad to serve their benefactors and gives you nothing. The Democrats favor letting your job go abroad to serve their benefactors and gives you a "safety net" worth 1/10th of the value of what you lost, enough to keep in subsistence living. If we continue along with the "fucking" analogy, I think you'd call the Democrat enhancement over what the GOP offers a "reacharound."

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Another point I really enjoyed was the argument against our meritocratic myth. That moronic fairy tale precludes us from having frank discussions about everything from racism to inequality.

I could swear that many years ago we had a prolonged argument about meritocracy with you insisting on it. Hm. Maybe it was someone else.

Anyone raising that should be given this book along with a copy of Fooled by Randomness.

Surely there are ways of exposing people to the concept of randomness without subjecting anyone to Taleb. He is insufferable.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Builders don't use "Chinese steel" as a pejorative for no reason. I recently had an HVAC unit replaced for one zone. I wanted to buy the big one, but was advised against it on the grounds, "It's all Chinese shit that'll break in ten years... don't waste the money." The unit in the other zone, made by Trane, with non-Chinese parts: 27 years old and still running. We just bought new clothes washers and dryers. People at Home Depot said the same thing. "Chinese shit." A very close friend and a family member are interior designers. Ask them about new furnishings made in China. You guessed it: "Chinese shit." Ask your mechanic. "Shit."

Well, if you've got the racism of people working in various industries backing you up...

[Icky Thump]

Blows all these places out of the motherfracking water. They know how to do pasta, pizza. They do NOT PLAY.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

Blows all these places out of the motherfracking water. They know how to do pasta, pizza. They do NOT PLAY.

Best- except for the trash problems.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

Well, if you've got the racism of people working in various industries backing you up...

You're insufferable.

China makes a lot of lousy products, badly. That's a fact. Whether a racist says that or the most enlightened and tolerant person on earth says that, it's a fact. Just like this fact: The US made shitty cars in the 70s and 80s. Is one xenophobic toward Americans to note that? No.

Norwegians make lousy pizza. So do the Swiss.

You throw the racist card with too much abandon. And in doing so, you do a huge disservice to the causes you think you're assisting. Voters exposed to people like you develop a very jaundiced view of progressives as naive, clueless, self-righteous sorts. They assume anyone who charges bigotry as his first move in any discussion is half frivolous and half dangerous. And they're right. Your immediate rush to explain everything as a symptom of bigoted minds is a lazy cudgel. It's a cheap effort to avoid substance with a form of ad hominen shaming. It's also immune to reply. One can argue how many Chinese goods are poorly or cheaply made and how many are not, but no one can prove or disprove the dimwitted suggestion that people who deem certain Chinese products to be of poor quality are all racists.

Use the word where it fits and refrain where it doesn't. It has meaning. It's not a whack a mole hammer for a lazy sophomoric thinker to brandish for cheap points in almost every conversation.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

So I finished the book. I was sidetracked by three others I'm also reading, the best of which is Michael Pollan's awesome How to Change Your Mind. (Best argument for why one must eat psychedelics, even into middle age and beyond, to keep the software in the mind nimble, and avoid falling into rote, repetitive thinking many of us mistake for "wisdom of experience." Highly recommended.)

But as to WF, I quite enjoyed the book. From a technical perspective, the argument is well delivered and well organized. There is some repetition, but I think it might be by design, given she's writing to a probably defensive audience that may need the points made reinforced a few times.

On substance, she explains institutional racism so well I don't think anyone could argue against its existence. Anyone raising the argument that we are a post-racial society should be given a copy of the book.

There were a lot of great insights, but if I had to pick one chapter that distilled them all to the best example of fragility, it'd be the white women's tears chapter. That captured the narcissism that underpins institutional racism. And the cluelessness. It's an amazing phenomenon -- a white person becoming upset and elevating their emotional state over the person actually experiencing the racism. We typically think of minorities being compelled to stay quiet by force. In reality, they're probably more dissuaded from doing so because they're usually ignored, or have the conversation hijacked to a discussion about the white person's response to their raising the issue of racism. This could be called "black exhaustion at white narcissism." I found this to be almost comedic in an absurd and macabre sense. "Enough about how this racism is impacting you... Let's talk about how talking about it impacts me." Larry David could write that line.

Another point I really enjoyed was the argument against our meritocratic myth. That moronic fairy tale precludes us from having frank discussions about everything from racism to inequality. Anyone raising that should be given this book along with a copy of Fooled by Randomness.

My takeaway from the book is that, for a lazy sort such as myself, the least one can do is speak frankly about racism when talking to other whites and shut up and listen if a black person is talking about racism. Don't preclude enlightenment on the subject from someone facing it directly. You'll never have the same angle on it, or anywhere near the same level of experience with it, as will he. To have that back and forth, however, whites are going to have to drop the habit of avoiding discussions of racism because they are uncomfortable, which in turn causes blacks to avoid discussing it with whites with the necessary level of candor.

I liked the book. Technically and substantively. Well done.

TM

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

You're insufferable.

China makes a lot of lousy products, badly. That's a fact. Whether a racist says that or the most enlightened and tolerant person on earth says that, it's a fact. Just like this fact: The US made shitty cars in the 70s and 80s. Is one xenophobic toward Americans to note that? No.

Norwegians make lousy pizza. So do the Swiss.

You throw the racist card with too much abandon. And in doing so, you do a huge disservice to the causes you think you're assisting. Voters exposed to people like you develop a very jaundiced view of progressives as naive, clueless, self-righteous sorts. They assume anyone who charges bigotry as his first move in any discussion is half frivolous and half dangerous. And they're right. Your immediate rush to explain everything as a symptom of bigoted minds is a lazy cudgel. It's a cheap effort to avoid substance with a form of ad hominen shaming. It's also immune to reply. One can argue how many Chinese goods are poorly or cheaply made and how many are not, but no one can prove or disprove the dimwitted suggestion that people who deem certain Chinese products to be of poor quality are all racists.

Use the word where it fits and refrain where it doesn't. It has meaning. It's not a whack a mole hammer for a lazy sophomoric thinker to brandish for cheap points in almost every conversation.

China makes lots of stuff, including the cheapest stuff. They also make your iPhone, your Fire tablet, your Google phone and do final assembly on pretty much all of your consumer electronics. China makes everything. The cheap stuff is cheap. The expensive stuff is not. That you ignore those facts and generalize is racist, dude.

And go read White Fragility again bcs you’re a stereotype of what she’s talking about. Sheesh.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

China makes lots of stuff, including the cheapest stuff. They also make your iPhone, your Fire tablet, your Google phone and do final assembly on pretty much all of your consumer electronics. China makes everything. The cheap stuff is cheap. The expensive stuff is not. That you ignore those facts and generalize is racist, dude.

And go read White Fragility again bcs you’re a stereotype of what she’s talking about. Sheesh.

Bullshit. Your understanding of her book is warped. What she described is a phenomenon, a situation, a societal condition, that should never be used as a go to argument every time you don't have much of an argument on the substance. That's what you're doing here.

There isn't anything anyone says here that you will not immediately flag as accruing from bigotry in some regard. You attempt to grandstand in every conversation with this tactic. You're full of shit. A little kid looking to score points. Look at my virtue!

I said China makes a number of quality items. But it also makes a whole lotta junk. This isn't up for debate. And it has nothing to do with race. It has to do with economic and political factors within the country.

Am I bigoted? Yes. Against almost every form of Chinese appliance or home furnishing I've bought (save the antiques), I am. It's not well made.

Guess what else isn't well made: Mercedes. They used to be built like bank vaults. Now they're cheap plasticky shitboxes. Chalk me up as bigoted against the Germans for pumping out cheap shadows of their past vehicles.

A shit product is a shit product is a shit product, and I'm tired of buying so many shit products. I'd buy American in re appliances, but I can't even do that. Few are made here and those that are have fallen in quality because, well, Why make something well when you can half ass it, have it break sooner, and compel the customer to buy another? That's what the competition abroad does.

Shall we get into British cars next? Might my refusal to ever own one be evidence of xenophobia toward the Brits?

White Fragility made sense. You've no business citing that book. That you do is kind of an insult to it. A cogent and measured argument like hers shouldn't be shoehorned into your moralizing pronouncements.

ETA: You're exactly what'll get Trump re-elected.