Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

2.


Much as Less might disagree, religion is not a mental disability that requires a reasonable accommodation under the ADA.

There are times one should accommodate the religion of someone in their employment. I'll let the labor law types figure out the extent to which this ought to mean legal protection and how much this just means not being a dick to people who work for you (there are more deserving people to be a dick to). For example, firing someone for observing Easter or Yom Kippur is a dick move.

But not serving alcohol as a flight attendant, not serving people who want to get married as a town clerk, or refusing cake or pizza on someone's wedding day? These are people who are just being dicks themselves.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

There are times one should accommodate the religion of someone in their employment. I'll let the labor law types figure out the extent to which this ought to mean legal protection and how much this just means not being a dick to people who work for you (there are more deserving people to be a dick to). For example, firing someone for observing Easter or Yom Kippur is a dick move.

A dick move? Sure. But should it be illegal? I'd say no, and it's a whole lot easier to accommodate than is refusing to serve alcohol or issue licenses.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

A dick move? Sure. But should it be illegal? I'd say no, and it's a whole lot easier to accommodate than is refusing to serve alcohol or issue licenses.

A lot of stuff in the employment area becomes illegal because too many people behave like dicks if we don't. I don't see a principled distinction here, just a practical one, weighing the burdens of regulation on all the decent people against the need to deflate the dicks.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You might like this.

That's pretty good.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

http://michiganradio.org/post/muslim...uffer#stream/0 thoughts?

Ridiculous. You know the job. Don't do it if your religion says you can't perform aspects of it.

I'm sick of all this religious accommodation bullshit.

TM

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

A lot of stuff in the employment area becomes illegal because too many people behave like dicks if we don't. I don't see a principled distinction here, just a practical one, weighing the burdens of regulation on all the decent people against the need to deflate the dicks.

No. We never get to a weighing analysis unless we first decide that religion -- religious practices, preferences, prohibitions, or some or all of same -- are legally deserving of a reasonable accommodation. Only then do you weigh the burden or making an accommodation.

And while giving someone the day off for Yom Kippur may seem reasonable in all circumstances, I don't agree that it is. First, if someone demanded Christmas off when we had a trial on December 27, I would say no, and I would mean it. Second, you pretty quickly get to a need to give several holidays, or all Friday afternoons off for prayer, or Sundays for church....

But, most of all, fuck that. People with real jobs lose them because they don't want to work on Thanksgiving or New Year's Day. I don't see a need to elevate religious observance days to a special status here.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Ridiculous. You know the job. Don't do it if your religion says you can't perform aspects of it.

I'm sick of all this religious accommodation bullshit.

TM

This would have been a more succinct way to say what I said above.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

No. We never get to a weighing analysis unless we first decide that religion -- religious practices, preferences, prohibitions, or some or all of same -- are legally deserving of a reasonable accommodation. Only then do you weigh the burden or making an accommodation.

And while giving someone the day off for Yom Kippur may seem reasonable in all circumstances, I don't agree that it is. First, if someone demanded Christmas off when we had a trial on December 27, I would say no, and I would mean it. Second, you pretty quickly get to a need to give several holidays, or all Friday afternoons off for prayer, or Sundays for church....

But, most of all, fuck that. People with real jobs lose them because they don't want to work on Thanksgiving or New Year's Day. I don't see a need to elevate religious observance days to a special status here.

Wait, Thanksgiving and New Year's Day are religious holidays? Is this more football stuff?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Wait, Thanksgiving and New Year's Day are religious holidays? Is this more football stuff?

I can't tell if you are joking or being serious.

If serious, I'll say two things:

1. Try to reserve your dickish outbursts for discussions with TM.

2. My point, which I thought was pretty obvious, was that if Walmart can fire someone for refusing to work on Thanksgiving, why should they be legally barred from firing someone for refusing to work on Yom Kippur, Easter, or any other day that some religious regards as a holiday?

If joking, I'll say this:

That was funny.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

I can't tell if you are joking or being serious.

If serious, I'll say two things:

1. Try to reserve your dickish outbursts for discussions with TM.

2. My point, which I thought was pretty obvious, was that if Walmart can fire someone for refusing to work on Thanksgiving, why should they be legally barred from firing someone for refusing to work on Yom Kippur, Easter, or any other day that some religious regards as a holiday?

If joking, I'll say this:

That was funny.

I was joking. Football didn't give it away?

I generally wouldn't start criminalizing making people work on religious holidays as a matter of course. As I said earlier, I thought I'd leave to others the question of whether behavior was dickish or illegal, but, hey, we are already into it, so why not.

If law firm of Brahman & Forbes, run by good old-school New England Calvinists, had a policy of giving people X days of PTO and as a matter of course denied people the ability to use those days on Yom Kippur but let people use them on Good Friday, Brahman & Forbes would not want me on the jury. And if there were a whole lot of Brahman & Forbes' in a given city who did this regularly, and I were king, I'd think about legislation that would make it illegal.

Yes, businesses may need people to work holidays. I work many holidays. Dammit, this year I worked on both Easter and Eid. If Walmart is open, they're going to need workers. But it's an area where it's perfectly reasonable for people to ask for a little accommodation and for businesses to try to be flexible in response, not like the airplane or town clerk where management is entitled to just be pissed.

Luckily, we live in a country where people would never discriminate against religious minorities. (Religious majorities, of course, may be another matter.)

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

I was joking. Football didn't give it away?

I generally wouldn't start criminalizing making people work on religious holidays as a matter of course. As I said earlier, I thought I'd leave to others the question of whether behavior was dickish or illegal, but, hey, we are already into it, so why not.

If law firm of Brahman & Forbes, run by good old-school New England Calvinists, had a policy of giving people X days of PTO and as a matter of course denied people the ability to use those days on Yom Kippur but let people use them on Good Friday, Brahman & Forbes would not want me on the jury. And if there were a whole lot of Brahman & Forbes' in a given city who did this regularly, and I were king, I'd think about legislation that would make it illegal.

Yes, businesses may need people to work holidays. I work many holidays. Dammit, this year I worked on both Easter and Eid. If Walmart is open, they're going to need workers. But it's an area where it's perfectly reasonable for people to ask for a little accommodation and for businesses to try to be flexible in response, not like the airplane or town clerk where management is entitled to just be pissed.

Luckily, we live in a country where people would never discriminate against religious minorities. (Religious majorities, of course, may be another matter.)

my first firm was the old time "Jewish" patent boutique. My first yom kippur the goyim CEO took all of us who came to work out to lunch on the firm, he goes "of course this is fair, these Jewish guys ain't working Christmas."

Which does seem a valid point, sort of?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

my first firm was the old time "Jewish" patent boutique. My first yom kippur the goyim CEO took all of us who came to work out to lunch on the firm, he goes "of course this is fair, these Jewish guys ain't working Christmas."

Which does seem a valid point, sort of?

I'm looking to celebrate all religious holidays myself.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

If law firm of Brahman & Forbes, run by good old-school New England Calvinists, had a policy of giving people X days of PTO and as a matter of course denied people the ability to use those days on Yom Kippur but let people use them on Good Friday, Brahman & Forbes would not want me on the jury. And if there were a whole lot of Brahman & Forbes' in a given city who did this regularly, and I were king, I'd think about legislation that would make it illegal.

I doubt you would need such legislation. That seems like straight-up discrimination based on religion, and already actionable. Which is why the firm would have to worry about you being on the jury -- they don't generally convene juries when stuff isn't actionable.

It is not illegal for me to assign really shitty tasks to junior lawyers (thank god). But if I routinely assign the shitty tasks to black lawyers, while giving white lawyers only the really cool and interesting tasks that junior lawyers do (whatever those are).... well, you get the point.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

It is not illegal for me to assign really shitty tasks to junior lawyers (thank god). But if I routinely assign the shitty tasks to black lawyers, while giving white lawyers only the really cool and interesting tasks that junior lawyers do (whatever those are).... well, you get the point.

Of course, for most large firms, the "Brady Rule" applies here. It's not whether or not they discriminate that's at issue, it's whether you can catch them.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

First, if someone demanded Christmas off when we had a trial on December 27, I would say no, and I would mean it.

Very few jobs face this kind of urgency, and the ones that do are generally exempt from most forms of labor regulation, aren't they?

Second, you pretty quickly get to a need to give several holidays, or all Friday afternoons off for prayer, or Sundays for church....

Ah, the slippery slope. Except you almost certainly already do accommodate for these things without even thinking about it. Most of what we do that's not happening on government time can be pretty easily moved around.

People with real jobs lose them because they don't want to work on Thanksgiving or New Year's Day.

If they work for assholes, I guess. Thankfully, everywhere I've ever worked had people that also did not want to work on Thanksgiving or New Year's Day and only did so if truly necessary and did not expect anything else of others.

ETA: I initially read "real jobs" to mean "jobs like ours," but perhaps that's not what you meant. If you meant actual real jobs - i.e., not white collar professional ones - then yeah, people with real jobs get fired for refusing to work when assigned.