Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

You (and obviously Sebby, but what else is new) are overstating this phenomenon to a degree that is patently ridiculous. There has been a wave of shit about Trump's complete bullshit. There has been maybe a scintilla of corrections over accusations of Trump being trash.

Just stop it.

TM

If an immigrant commits a crime, and Trump it to attack immigrants, certainly some people will say they are choosing Trump over a flawed immigration system. (I think this is much more plausible factually than Larry O'Donnell's reporting affecting the vote.) Even if this happens, it is wrong to say that people are voting for Trump because of the immigrant's crime. They are voting for Trump because that's their decision. Pretending that immigrant (or the reporter) is somehow responsible for those votes takes away the agency and responsibility of those voters. I'm sick and tired of people taking conservative lunacy as a fact of the world, and suggesting that everyone else needs to tiptoe around it and change their behavior so that conservatives don't act like lunatics. They are going to act like lunatics.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If an immigrant commits a crime, and Trump it to attack immigrants, certainly some people will say they are choosing Trump over a flawed immigration system. (I think this is much more plausible factually than Larry O'Donnell's reporting affecting the vote.) Even if this happens, it is wrong to say that people are voting for Trump because of the immigrant's crime. They are voting for Trump because that's their decision. Pretending that immigrant (or the reporter) is somehow responsible for those votes takes away the agency and responsibility of those voters. I'm sick and tired of people taking conservative lunacy as a fact of the world, and suggesting that everyone else needs to tiptoe around it and change their behavior so that conservatives don't act like lunatics. They are going to act like lunatics.

Can you see where this makes you seem a dick?

There must be people that voted for President Obama, yet somehow found Trump better than Clinton. I don’t get that. You don’t get that. T doesn’t get that. But it is true. I’d hope some of those people look at the bigger outrages and decide, enough! Seeing some of the outrages ain’t could cause them to think they shouldn’t worry about the others?

That’s all I’m saying. It doesn’t make me waiver. I actually haven’t read much about him. Once I saw he sent mean crazed tweets at 3 AM, I wrote him off as a possible president. I have my head in the sand.

But I think there may be votes lost by faked stories. Doesn’t mean much as we can’t stop it.

How many votes are at issue? I feel a lot, as I think we have lots of people who know in their heart he is bad but might not want to believe it, but will unless they can lie to themselves it isn’t true.

I feel there may be a lot of such people. You and Thurgreed think there are few. Just not sure why you two have the chops to know that answer. Seems a bit pompous. Hope you are right, don’t misunderstand, just not a fan of you all dismissing arguments because “you know.”

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Can you see where this makes you seem a dick?

Nope, but I'm all ears.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If an immigrant commits a crime, and Trump it to attack immigrants, certainly some people will say they are choosing Trump over a flawed immigration system. (I think this is much more plausible factually than Larry O'Donnell's reporting affecting the vote.) Even if this happens, it is wrong to say that people are voting for Trump because of the immigrant's crime. They are voting for Trump because that's their decision. Pretending that immigrant (or the reporter) is somehow responsible for those votes takes away the agency and responsibility of those voters. I'm sick and tired of people taking conservative lunacy as a fact of the world, and suggesting that everyone else needs to tiptoe around it and change their behavior so that conservatives don't act like lunatics. They are going to act like lunatics.

You realize this argument can be reversed (like all others, but never mind that)?

This sounds compelling, but assumes a libertarian view that personal agency controls. It doesn't. If you're a believer that we have free will, you can let endless books about why we don't correct your view (most recently, White Fragility, compellingly; and less recently but similarly, Free Will by Sam Harris [both reach similar conclusions on free will and agency]).

You're angry at conservatives -- you've spot tautologies and hypocrisies in their assessments? Conservatives would use the same logic to take issue with progressives.

I sense you're lost for logical structures to capture the why and how. We're all on the Do Long Bridge. If you think Hank and I are crazy about swing voters, why doubt us? Who knows any better? Who could? Certainly not you.

But then again... why trust us?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Nope, but I'm all ears.

Stp

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Three years of handwringing over constant news of complete corruption and numerous fucking scandals, self-dealing, and favoritism to our fucking enemy. Yeah.

Shoot the bear and kill it or don't shoot. Democrats look like losers.

Trump looked like a loser with the birther thing. Which is why he walked it back. Obama was a winner. He wore it. He owned it. He had The Smile. Hillary was not.

Obama could kill Trump. He knows how to kill Trump. Biden may know how to kill Trump.

The media is filled with whiny losers. The same way the whiny losers at Fox could not undo Obama. Like it or not, Trump and Obama share that "fuck the opponent" swagger. Should we elect presidents on this basis? Probably not. But we're dumb animals acting more on instinct than we know. This is the playing field.

Why do we not have impeachment? Because Republicans have destroyed the entire system so that they can reshape government in the image they want.

You don't have impeachment because you haven't been able to make a compelling enough case for it politically and in the media. If the GOP can reshape the system (which progressives also seek to do), you have to play by the rules enforced on you. When you win, you get to change the rules.

Is this a good way to run things? Fuck no. But as long as we have adversarial systems in control, this is the wrestling match we endure.

If you don't think these things are affecting Trump's standing, you are fucking koo koo for Cocoa Puffs. Yes, his base won't budge. But everyone knows he's an idiotic lunatic looking to enrich himself through corruption. And many people who voted for him may not be paying close attention to the intricacies of the Mueller Report, but they know that there's a ton of fucking smoke. They also know he's fucking everything up with this absolutely brain-dead tariff war. I'm not going to mention kids in cages and all the other racist shit.

If you've money enough to matter, you're ahead of the tariff silliness. If it's hurting you, as it hurts me, you're a nobody. I'm a nobody. But I'm not missing any meals.

So stop acting like people need to just focus on beating him at the ballot box (whatever that means). This shit is all related. All of it. Everything he's done is fair fucking game and it's all going to hit him come election time.

It is all related. And Hank and I have been telling you, why allow the media to be a proxy/whipping boy for Democrats? It's just fucking dumb. Drop this Russia shit and start focusing on how the Trump tax cuts favor well heeled r/e investors.

Lawrence O'Donnell's little correction is a blip. It will not affect anything. It will not get anyone to think, "Well, now we know all this stuff is made up." Ty is right that the only people repeating that bullshit are you, Hank, and the most idiotic of Trump supporters. And Hank is already voting against him, so everyone else on that list can be fucking ignored.*

Chinese water torture works drip by drip. A wall is built with thousands of bricks. Trust me when I tell you, Trump is creating an impression in the Blue Wall that his detractors are insane malcontents. I voted for John Kerry in 2004 and was sure, among all my friends in Philly, that we would right the injustice of the Iraq War. I went to bed drunk and happy and sure the nation would know W was a reckless fool, based on what the media had done for the prior 4 years, and what it had done during the campaign.

I woke up pissed.

If you buy Ty's view, you may wake up seriously pissed in November of next year.

TM

*That includes you who will find some reason to throw your vote away in PA and act like it won't mean a thing.

I'm not voting for Trump. I can't.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm not voting for Trump. I can't.

no offense but you said this in 2016. Who you gonna vote for is the question.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Stp

Dude, you edited your post twenty minutes after I said I'm all ears.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

There must be people that voted for President Obama, yet somehow found Trump better than Clinton. I don’t get that. You don’t get that. T doesn’t get that. But it is true. I’d hope some of those people look at the bigger outrages and decide, enough! Seeing some of the outrages ain’t could cause them to think they shouldn’t worry about the others?

That’s all I’m saying. It doesn’t make me waiver. I actually haven’t read much about him. Once I saw he sent mean crazed tweets at 3 AM, I wrote him off as a possible president. I have my head in the sand.

But I think there may be votes lost by faked stories. Doesn’t mean much as we can’t stop it.

How many votes are at issue? I feel a lot, as I think we have lots of people who know in their heart he is bad but might not want to believe it, but will unless they can lie to themselves it isn’t true.

I feel there may be a lot of such people. You and Thurgreed think there are few. Just not sure why you two have the chops to know that answer. Seems a bit pompous. Hope you are right, don’t misunderstand, just not a fan of you all dismissing arguments because “you know.”

I don't think there are any such people, and Sebby says the least sophisticated Rust Belt voter understands he's a con man. (I assume that by "least sophisticated voter" he means "swingingest swing voter" and if I were you I'd be calling him a dick for that, not me.) If you think there is a non-trivial number of such voters, then you and the rest of us respectfully differ on that. Either way, if those people vote for Trump because someone in the media got a story wrong, that's their choice, not a reporter's fault. Blaming the media for Trump's bullshit, which is what Sebby was doing, is barking up the wrong tree.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I don't think there are any such people, and Sebby says the least sophisticated Rust Belt voter understands he's a con man. (I assume that by "least sophisticated voter" he means "swingingest swing voter" and if I were you I'd be calling him a dick for that, not me.) If you think there is a non-trivial number of such voters, then you and the rest of us respectfully differ on that. Either way, if those people vote for Trump because someone in the media got a story wrong, that's their choice, not a reporter's fault. Blaming the media for Trump's bullshit, which is what Sebby was doing, is barking up the wrong tree.

I ain’t sebby. You ain’t a dick but what you said was Dickish. Namaste.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

I don't think there are any such people, and Sebby says the least sophisticated Rust Belt voter understands he's a con man. (I assume that by "least sophisticated voter" he means "swingingest swing voter" and if I were you I'd be calling him a dick for that, not me.)

No. I mean Trump is so obviously full of it that it's impossible to be conned by the man. When he lies, people do not feel deceived the same way they do when the media spins and shades stories.

By the way, Fox is self-parody. Everyone knows they're propaganda and they know everyone knows. They're not deceiving anyone. CNN, the Times, WaPo, and the Journal hold themselves out as real news. When the Journal spins a story to the right, or the others spin it to the left, they're disguising advocacy as fact expose. This is a form of lying.

If you think there is a non-trivial number of such voters, then you and the rest of us respectfully differ on that. Either way, if those people vote for Trump because someone in the media got a story wrong, that's their choice, not a reporter's fault. Blaming the media for Trump's bullshit, which is what Sebby was doing, is barking up the wrong tree.

Bullshit. If a reporter runs out with a story quickly, recklessly, because he's excited that it will damage a candidate or politician, and he subsequently has to walk it back because it's not accurate or verifiable, he's responsible for the fuck-up, and for every bad result it causes. There are fact checking rules to be followed by reputable news organizations. O'Donnell is a silly advocate who trampled them, like Hannity and Ingraham do every night. CNN has had to walk back several "scoops" on Trump's administration, and I think even apologize for a couple. WaPo has had to do the same. That Fox engages in lies all day does not give these people a pass to do the same. Unless they wish to be considered unreliable advocacy networks, like Fox, which indeed is the public perception of them. So yes, the "journalists" are the problem here.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

no offense but you said this in 2016. Who you gonna vote for is the question.

I could vote for Biden or perhaps even Warren. I will never vote for an ex-prosecutor and corporate hack like Harris.

However, if Biden runs out with some crazy plan that fucks up my family's business interests, I'll stay home. Warren's plans so far do not do this, so she seems safe. I'm happy to see her tackle Wall Street, overhaul bkcy law, and give the millennials debt forgiveness of some limited sort (if that's possible) as it would be stimulus. My exposure to that sector suffering losses is minimal. And single payer could actually make us money.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Dude, you edited your post twenty minutes after I said I'm all ears.

You should edit most of yours to change "conservative" to "populist."

Biden is the conservative, traditional candidate this cycle. Trump is a populist. He is not a conservative. Trump is classically liberal, interventionist, willing to upset norms.

I know this upsets the framework you use to preach about one party being reactionary and one party not being so. But, well... facts.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

You should edit most of yours to change "conservative" to "populist."

Biden is the conservative, traditional candidate this cycle. Trump is a populist. He is not a conservative. Trump is classically liberal, interventionist, willing to upset norms.

I know this upsets the framework you use to preach about one party being reactionary and one party not being so. But, well... facts.

I'm always entertained by how identity works in America. Trump is a traditional conservative, his jingoistic nationalism is right in line with the icons of the right, Goldwater and Reagan, his approach to civil rights is, too, his economics are really not far off (cut taxes and all else follows), his court appointments look identical .... he's just even more of an asshole and a moron than they were, which is why conservatives try to redefine conservatism without him.

Dr. Frankenstein, meet your monster.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

If a reporter runs out with a story quickly, recklessly, because he's excited that it will damage a candidate or politician, and he subsequently has to walk it back because it's not accurate or verifiable, he's responsible for the fuck-up, and for every bad result it causes.

Sure, but a journalist's story does not "cause" someone to vote for Trump. They decide to vote for Trump, with the full awareness that he is a con man.