We are all Slave now.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

S But if you read closely, other than the allegation Kavanaugh was waiting in a line, which itself doesn't prove he actually did anything, you see no direct linkage of the man to any specific crime.

It is direct evidence of a crime, if not proof. Conflating those things textbook denialism & apology for rape culture.

We've all been at debauched parties.

I've never been at a party where I suspected that there was an individual rape happening, much less a gang rape. Had I been, the situation would not have continued.

But I can spot when a second-stringer like Avenatti is trying to manipulate me into believing this affidavit is proof of something much worse. And I have to wonder why he is doing that. My suspicion is because he is a massive asshole and publicity whore.

This is you trying to find a way to dismiss what an alleged victim has said, going so far as to focus on someone other than her. When we say "rape culture" we mean this, among other things.

But it could also be inherent weakness of a witness who does not want to wind up facing perjury allegations.

Yes, a person holding security clearances and signing a declaration under oath clearly was mostly worried about perjury...

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Adder

I've never been at a party where I suspected that there was an individual rape happening, much less a gang rape. Had I been, the situation.......

You would have done..........????

I think this came up when we posted about the red head PSU coach seeing the shower rape.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

It is direct evidence of a crime, if not proof. Conflating those things textbook denialism & apology for rape culture.



I've never been at a party where I suspected that there was an individual rape happening, much less a gang rape. Had I been, the situation would not have continued.



This is you trying to find a way to dismiss what an alleged victim has said, going so far as to focus on someone other than her. When we say "rape culture" we mean this, among other things.



Yes, a person holding security clearances and signing a declaration under oath clearly was mostly worried about perjury...

I’m not addressing the use of “rape culture.” This is a forum for circumspect, mature discourse.* I won’t listen to people using “SJW” or their opponents’ equivalent McLanguage.

On substance, my critique is professional. While I believe this woman’s story in general, I see the work of a lawyer attempting to make it far more incriminating of Kavanaugh than it is or would be if she were deposed in person.

Your last point helps to prove my point. I can tell you how, and it’s obvious to probably everyone else, but I think you’d benefit from the thought exercise.

____
*Not exactly. But it’s not a freshman year 101 level round table seminar on “trends in social mores,” either.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

You would have done..........????

I think this came up when we posted about the red head PSU coach seeing the shower rape.

Forget this. He took one line out of context to attempt to create this debate. If you look back, it’s clear I was making an analogy to a party where drug use, not sexual assault, was rampant.

He does this all the time. He takes a line out of context, replies with some platitude, and hopes people are dumb enough to give him an “atta boy.”

I don’t think he understands how transparent it is.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

Oh, I know WHY he was saying it. But is still hit me like a dump truck.

Different situation entirely, but this article was an interesting take on whether we should also observe a certain level of care for partners: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/s...-to-ghost.html

I’d say your scenario there asks a related question: What level of care do we owe those with whom we’ve shared casual intimacy?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I’m not addressing the use of “rape culture.” .

You've picked a shockingingly obtuse time to make this "point."

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

You've picked a shockingingly obtuse time to make this "point."

I'm quite happy to examine how male bonding culture, or same sex schooling, contributes to these depraved acts upon women. I'm also willing to look at any incident subjectively to determine how and why it happened.

What I'm not willing to do is start using McLanguage to generalize these things. I'm not willing to engage with terms that have no definition, or can be expanded or contracted to mean anything the speaker desires or needs them to mean. I'm not willing to discuss anything with anyone using a term like "SJW" to demean things like Occupy or BLM, or any platitude-thrower looking to score moral high ground by assailing "rape culture."

There are no "SJWs." Nor is there "rape culture." There are some people who take complaints about social inequality a bit too far, or are even absurd. And there are some men who are borderline, or fully, misogynistic. But not every grievance makes one an SJW, and not every frat bro is a part of rape culture. These are dumb words, and they're signalling words. They bring nothing to a conversation. They're shorthand for lazy thinkers and people more concerned with how others perceive them in a discussion than actually learning something from a discussion.

It's a free country. Use any term you like. But understand, using these new signalling terms betrays a lot. Little if any of it flattering.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

male bonding culture... Nor is there "rape culture."

Dude. Ask yourself why you think one of these sets of words is valid but the other isn't.

not every frat bro is a part of rape culture.

We're in the middle of a national conversation about whether old rape allegations matter, with a non-trivial part of the country concluding they do not and arguing that the accused should face no consequences, regardless of whether the allegations are true. That's rape culture.

More specifically, we're in the middle of a conversation about how seriously to take a sworn statement literally about a group of young men who allegedly sought to use drugs and alcohol to take advantage of young women.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

You would have done..........????

I think this came up when we posted about the red head PSU coach seeing the shower rape.

Didn't that PSU coach report it up the chain?

I suppose the first reaction anyone would have is not believe that something that terrible was happening, which might lead to inaction. Once you're past that reaction, what wouldn't you do?

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I’m not addressing the use of “rape culture.” This is a forum for circumspect, mature discourse.

Try to read those two sentences--one after another--and think about how stupid they sound when read that way. You can't plug your ears with your fucking fingers in one breath and then preach about your elevated levels of discourse in the next.

TM

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Adder

Didn't that PSU coach report it up the chain?

Maybe, but that let the rape happen- not sure what i would do if I was a drunk kid in a drunk party (i wouldn't be in the "line," i hope) with a group of guys I'd have to fight to stop. i know what I hope I'd do..... But I'd never say i would try to stop it....

I suppose the first reaction anyone would have is not believe that something that terrible was happening, which might lead to inaction. Once you're past that reaction, what wouldn't you do?

When i was in 11th grade football was ALMOST all seniors, and serious assholes (largely). In the summer workouts Junior high players came and joined us. So there were kids who will be 10th in a few months there.

Once after a workout I saw 5 seniors pick up and throw a naked ninth grader outside the locked gym door. He was outside, and the cheerleaders were practicing nearby. The kid was screaming and smashing on the door, the kid's high school rep was about to get seriously fucked over. 5 of these baboons were standing by the door laughing. I did walk past them and opened the door. But these guys had already had their "fun."

I could see breaking up a line of guys in line to rape turning in to me getting beat up by the gang- still i hope i would, just would never say what i might do in that moment.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

We're in the middle of a national conversation about whether old rape allegations matter, with a non-trivial part of the country concluding they do not and arguing that the accused should face no consequences, regardless of whether the allegations are true. That's rape culture.

That's not the definition I have heard at all. That's you backpedaling. When people use the term "rape culture," they apply it smear traditional masculine behaviors and institutions celebrating those behaviors. "Rapey fratty" is a frequent derivative. It's a piece of hyperbole which can be brandished broadly, but then when one is taken to task for using it, as I took you, redefined, as you have here, to mean something very narrow.

We both know you don't use that word with the very narrow meaning you now claim. You use it to signal that you're conversant in the terminology of people who like such McLanguage. There's a certain intellect that embraces these terms, and they use them to wink to one another. It's a similar intellect to that of the alt-right sorts and bigots who wink to one another using terms like "SJW," which is why I made that comparison.

It's "inside lingo," weaponized terminology, and your backpedaling doesn't withstand cursory scrutiny. To assert that "rape culture" defines only the people who refuse to believe old rape allegations or think there should be no consequences for them is to narrow term's use to very limited circumstances. The term "rape culture" is not so narrowly used, however, and you know it. It's used broadly, to suggest there's a male culture in which rape is okay, perhaps even viewed positively. Even among misogynists, that is but a sliver of men.

The term that is fair and correct is misogynist. "Rape Culture" is what you use when you want to ratchet up the indictment of misogynists -- when calling them sexists or woman haters isn't salacious enough. It's a dumb word. People sound silly and frivolous using it. If you wish to be taken seriously in these discussions, I suggest dropping it. If not, expect more of this.

More specifically, we're in the middle of a conversation about how seriously to take a sworn statement literally about a group of young men who allegedly sought to use drugs and alcohol to take advantage of young men.

I'd take it seriously as a heart attack. I'd listen to the stories on a case by case basis and decide if they sound true.

If a person thinks any woman in this Kavanaugh thing is lying or accusing for political gain, that does not make him or her part of "rape culture." It may make them wrong, deluded, brainwashed (or if that turned out to be the case, correct). These are very different indictments than accusing someone of being part of "rape culture."

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Try to read those two sentences--one after another--and think about how stupid they sound when read that way. You can't plug your ears with your fucking fingers in one breath and then preach about your elevated levels of discourse in the next.

TM

I can and will use language that is accurate. One needn't be Bill Safire to apprehend that "rape culture" is a idiot's cudgel.

I hate all inside lingo. I hate it when it's even industry-specific. It's a cheap way to create a barrier, to bond with fellow users of McLanguage, and to appear to have knowledge which one doesn't.

ETA: And it's worth noting, when I was inaccurate in using "censorship," Ty ripped me for it. At least censorship is a word. "Rape Culture" is an undefinable meme-like creation.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

McLanguage

Salty and sweet at the same time?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

When people use the term "rape culture," they apply it smear traditional masculine behaviors and institutions celebrating those behaviors. "Rapey fratty" is a frequent derivative. It's a piece of hyperbole which can be brandished broadly, but then when one is taken to task for using it, as I took you, redefined, as you have here, to mean something very narrow.

We both know you don't use that word with the very narrow meaning you now claim. You use it to signal that you're conversant in the terminology of people who like such McLanguage. There's a certain intellect that embraces these terms, and they use them to wink to one another. It's a similar intellect to that of the alt-right sorts and bigots who wink to one another using terms like "SJW," which is why I made that comparison.

It's fun to see you parse and correct someone else's use of language.