I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller

Since any declaration by me concerning music would be met by contempt, derision and condescension, I'll switch to law and politics.

One of my favorite cases to cite is The Chimney Sweeper's Jewel, Armorie v. Delamarie, 1 Strange 505 (1722). Whenever the opportunity arises, I cite this for the proposition that an adverse inference arises when a party in exclusive possession of something refuses to produce it. In that case, a chimney sweep found a ring, gave it to a jeweler, and asked for an appraisal. The jeweler lowballed the value, and refused to return the stone, returning only the setting to the chimney sweep.

At trial the jeweler refused to produce the jewel. The court held the chimney sweep had superior title, and that damages would be the maximum value of a stone that would fit in the setting. There was an adverse inference against the jeweler who hadn't produced the stone.

We are the Chimney Sweeps. Trump is the Jeweler. The stone is his tax return(s). By adverse inference, his tax returns contain information which would disqualify him from the Presidency. This has both logic and law on the side of the Chimney Sweeps, unlike, just to pick an example out of thin air, the fabrication of Trump's nonsense about Obama's Kenyan birth.

Let the trial begin! Trump has the proof. Let him produce it or resign.

The trial was in November.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

The trial was in November.

Please tone down the contempt, derision and condescension embedded in this response. Ferrets is sensitive to these types of sentiments.

Belgian funk? I guess the Chakachas decided to get down and dirty in the land of cyclocross and frites. The Daily Dose is "Jungle Fever":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp-NIC6X0GQ

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Please tone down the contempt, derision and condescension embedded in this response. Ferrets is sensitive to these types of sentiments.

Belgian funk? I guess the Chakachas decided to get down and dirty in the land of cyclocross and frites. The Daily Dose is "Jungle Fever":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp-NIC6X0GQ

Contempt, derision and condescension? How about anger, grief and desolation?

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Contempt, derision and condescension? How about anger, grief and desolation?

Don't try to confuse me with your alternative emotions.

[ferrets_bueller]

I'm no more thin skinned than most people here, I just follow the rule that when there isn't a point to be made, I won't bother. My views on music engender blather; the discussion doesn't advance.

To the merits of "The trial was in November,": Nuts. In no particular order:

1. If those tax return had been released, I doubt that the 100,000 votes in three swing states that gave Trump his electoral college victory would have gone his way.

2. The facts remain unclear NOW. I assert he has irreconcilable and disqualifying ties with foreign governments NOW. This is an ongoing issue not settled by his election. The adverse inference applies NOW.

3. The elections of 2008 and 2012 did not prevent Trump from fraudulently attacking the legitimacy of Obama's qualification to be President. So the fact that Trump won in November does not, by his prior conduct, settle such an issue.

4. Trump states that only the dishonest media cares about his tax returns...citing his electoral college victory. Trump had not cited any data in support for this statement. There is no such data. It is a fabrication that is is completely and demonstrably wrong. Seventy four per cent of the public disagree:

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...se-tax-returns

5. Before you whine that The Hill is part of an anti-Trump conspiracy,
two recent polls by Pew Research Center and ABC come to the same conclusion. The polls, both released within the last two weeks, show that 60% and 74% of Americans, respectively, want the returns to be released. According to the ABC data, 49% of Trump’s own supporters say he should release his tax returns, as well as 94% of Clinton supporters and 83% of those who stated they had either another (or no) preference for US president.


6. The most popular petition on the new White House website also shows major interest in the returns, garnering more than 200,000 signatures since it was posted Friday—twice the amount needed for an official response.

6. When these tax returns are made public (anyone care to bet if they are made public before the 2016 presidential election?) all of the people like the guys in my Army platoon who voted for Trump will be pissed about paying more taxes than a draft dodging slob who inherited more money than they will make in the collective lifetimes. And the line that "I used the laws of the United States brilliantly" won't have the same appeal.

Those tax returns are coming out. He would have lost the election had they been out in November and he knows it.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller

I'm no more thin skinned than most people here, I just follow the rule that when there isn't a point to be made, I won't bother. My views on music engender blather; the discussion doesn't advance.

To the merits of "The trial was in November,": Nuts. In no particular order:

1. If those tax return had been released, I doubt that the 100,000 votes in three swing states that gave Trump his electoral college victory would have gone his way.

2. The facts remain unclear NOW. I assert he has irreconcilable and disqualifying ties with foreign governments NOW. This is an ongoing issue not settled by his election. The adverse inference applies NOW.

3. The elections of 2008 and 2012 did not prevent Trump from fraudulently attacking the legitimacy of Obama's qualification to be President. So the fact that Trump won in November does not, by his prior conduct, settle such an issue.

4. Trump states that only the dishonest media cares about his tax returns...citing his electoral college victory. Trump had not cited any data in support for this statement. There is no such data. It is a fabrication that is is completely and demonstrably wrong. Seventy four per cent of the public disagree:

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...se-tax-returns

5. Before you whine that The Hill is part of an anti-Trump conspiracy,
two recent polls by Pew Research Center and ABC come to the same conclusion. The polls, both released within the last two weeks, show that 60% and 74% of Americans, respectively, want the returns to be released. According to the ABC data, 49% of Trump’s own supporters say he should release his tax returns, as well as 94% of Clinton supporters and 83% of those who stated they had either another (or no) preference for US president.


6. The most popular petition on the new White House website also shows major interest in the returns, garnering more than 200,000 signatures since it was posted Friday—twice the amount needed for an official response.

6. When these tax returns are made public (anyone care to bet if they are made public before the 2016 presidential election?) all of the people like the guys in my Army platoon who voted for Trump will be pissed about paying more taxes than a draft dodging slob who inherited more money than they will make in the collective lifetimes. And the line that "I used the laws of the United States brilliantly" won't have the same appeal.

Those tax returns are coming out. He would have lost the election had they been out in November and he knows it.

British friend made these observations after attending an energy conference in Abu Dhabi:

Russian connection....1) Trump owes Blackstone/ Bayrock group $560 million dollars (one of his largest debtors and the primary reason he won't reveal his tax returns)
2) Blackstone is owned wholly by Russian billionaires, who owe their position to Putin and have made billions from their work with the Russian government.
3) Other companies that have borrowed from Blackstone have claimed that owing money to them is like owing to the Russian mob and while you owe them, they own you for many favors.
4) The Russian economy is badly faltering under the weight of its over-dependence on raw materials which as you know have plummeted in the last 2 years leaving the Russian economy scrambling to pay its debts.
5) Russia has an impetus to influence our election to ensure the per barrel oil prices are above $65 ( they are currently hovering around $50)
6) Russia can't affordably get at 80% of its oil reserves and reduce its per barrel cost to compete with America at $45 or Saudi Arabia at $39. With Iranian sanctions being lifted Russia will find another inexpensive competitor increasing production and pushing Russia further down the list of suppliers.
As for Iranian sanctions, the 6 countries lifting them allowing Iran to collect on the billions it is owed for pumping oil but not being paid for it. These billions Iran can only get if the Iranian nuclear deal is signed. Trump spoke of ending the deals which would cause oil sales sanctions to be reimposed, which would make Russian oil more competitive.
7) Rex Tillerson (Trump's pick for Secretary of State) is the head of ExxonMobil, which is in possession of patented technology that could help Putin extract 45% more oil at a significant cost savings to Russia, helping Putin put money in the Russian coffers to help reconstitute its military and finally afford to mass produce the new and improved systems that it had invented before the Russian economy had slowed so much.
8) Putin cannot get access to these new cost saving technologies OR outside oil field development money, due to US sanctions on Russia, because of its involvement in Ukrainian civil war.
9) Look for Trump to end sanctions on Russia and to back out of the Iranian nuclear deal, to help Russia rebuild its economy, strengthen Putin and make Tillerson and Trump even richer, thus allowing Trump to satisfy his creditors at Blackstone.
10) With Trump's fabricated hatred of NATO and the U.N., the Russian military reconstituted, the threat to the Baltic states is real. Russia retaking their access to the Baltic Sea from Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia and threatening the shipping of millions of cubic feet of natural gas to lower Europe from Scandinavia, allowing Russia to make a good case for its oil and gas being piped into eastern Europe.

[Icky Thump]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

British friend made these observations after attending an energy conference in Abu Dhabi:

Russian connection....1) Trump owes Blackstone/ Bayrock group $560 million dollars (one of his largest debtors and the primary reason he won't reveal his tax returns)
2) Blackstone is owned wholly by Russian billionaires, who owe their position to Putin and have made billions from their work with the Russian government.
3) Other companies that have borrowed from Blackstone have claimed that owing money to them is like owing to the Russian mob and while you owe them, they own you for many favors.
4) The Russian economy is badly faltering under the weight of its over-dependence on raw materials which as you know have plummeted in the last 2 years leaving the Russian economy scrambling to pay its debts.
5) Russia has an impetus to influence our election to ensure the per barrel oil prices are above $65 ( they are currently hovering around $50)
6) Russia can't affordably get at 80% of its oil reserves and reduce its per barrel cost to compete with America at $45 or Saudi Arabia at $39. With Iranian sanctions being lifted Russia will find another inexpensive competitor increasing production and pushing Russia further down the list of suppliers.
As for Iranian sanctions, the 6 countries lifting them allowing Iran to collect on the billions it is owed for pumping oil but not being paid for it. These billions Iran can only get if the Iranian nuclear deal is signed. Trump spoke of ending the deals which would cause oil sales sanctions to be reimposed, which would make Russian oil more competitive.
7) Rex Tillerson (Trump's pick for Secretary of State) is the head of ExxonMobil, which is in possession of patented technology that could help Putin extract 45% more oil at a significant cost savings to Russia, helping Putin put money in the Russian coffers to help reconstitute its military and finally afford to mass produce the new and improved systems that it had invented before the Russian economy had slowed so much.
8) Putin cannot get access to these new cost saving technologies OR outside oil field development money, due to US sanctions on Russia, because of its involvement in Ukrainian civil war.
9) Look for Trump to end sanctions on Russia and to back out of the Iranian nuclear deal, to help Russia rebuild its economy, strengthen Putin and make Tillerson and Trump even richer, thus allowing Trump to satisfy his creditors at Blackstone.
10) With Trump's fabricated hatred of NATO and the U.N., the Russian military reconstituted, the threat to the Baltic states is real. Russia retaking their access to the Baltic Sea from Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia and threatening the shipping of millions of cubic feet of natural gas to lower Europe from Scandinavia, allowing Russia to make a good case for its oil and gas being piped into eastern Europe.

Am I the only one who finds Mike Pence scarier than Trump who owes Russia?

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

Am I the only one who finds Mike Pence scarier than Trump who owes Russia?

You have to factor into that calculus the fact that Trump comes with Pence as a probable policy influencer as VP, more so than previous VPs.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

British friend made these observations after attending an energy conference in Abu Dhabi:

Russian connection....1) Trump owes Blackstone/ Bayrock group $560 million dollars (one of his largest debtors and the primary reason he won't reveal his tax returns)
2) Blackstone is owned wholly by Russian billionaires, who owe their position to Putin and have made billions from their work with the Russian government.
3) Other companies that have borrowed from Blackstone have claimed that owing money to them is like owing to the Russian mob and while you owe them, they own you for many favors.
4) The Russian economy is badly faltering under the weight of its over-dependence on raw materials which as you know have plummeted in the last 2 years leaving the Russian economy scrambling to pay its debts.
5) Russia has an impetus to influence our election to ensure the per barrel oil prices are above $65 ( they are currently hovering around $50)
6) Russia can't affordably get at 80% of its oil reserves and reduce its per barrel cost to compete with America at $45 or Saudi Arabia at $39. With Iranian sanctions being lifted Russia will find another inexpensive competitor increasing production and pushing Russia further down the list of suppliers.
As for Iranian sanctions, the 6 countries lifting them allowing Iran to collect on the billions it is owed for pumping oil but not being paid for it. These billions Iran can only get if the Iranian nuclear deal is signed. Trump spoke of ending the deals which would cause oil sales sanctions to be reimposed, which would make Russian oil more competitive.
7) Rex Tillerson (Trump's pick for Secretary of State) is the head of ExxonMobil, which is in possession of patented technology that could help Putin extract 45% more oil at a significant cost savings to Russia, helping Putin put money in the Russian coffers to help reconstitute its military and finally afford to mass produce the new and improved systems that it had invented before the Russian economy had slowed so much.
8) Putin cannot get access to these new cost saving technologies OR outside oil field development money, due to US sanctions on Russia, because of its involvement in Ukrainian civil war.
9) Look for Trump to end sanctions on Russia and to back out of the Iranian nuclear deal, to help Russia rebuild its economy, strengthen Putin and make Tillerson and Trump even richer, thus allowing Trump to satisfy his creditors at Blackstone.
10) With Trump's fabricated hatred of NATO and the U.N., the Russian military reconstituted, the threat to the Baltic states is real. Russia retaking their access to the Baltic Sea from Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia and threatening the shipping of millions of cubic feet of natural gas to lower Europe from Scandinavia, allowing Russia to make a good case for its oil and gas being piped into eastern Europe.

You're in Texas, I assume you have lots of folks around who get excited when the price of oil goes up. Fundamentally, key parts of the deep red state economy may have more similar economic interests to those of Russia than to those of East or West Coast or Midwest rust-belt states. Tillerson and Putin may see eye to eye on a lot of issues. That goes for foreign policy as well.

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

You have to factor into that calculus the fact that Trump comes with Pence as a probable policy influencer as VP, more so than previous VPs.

Yes. As indicated by appointing Sessions as AG (and the anti-bathroom dude from NC as the head of the Civil Rights Division) and the restoration of the anti-abortion (actually anti any funding for any group that even mentions abortion) foreign aid language.

Trump and Pence - all the risk of nuclear war *plus* the religious right's social policy!

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Wait, I thought we had an election to sort this out?

HTTPS://pbs.twimg.com/media/C24gb_OXcAANJ6E.jpg

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

Am I the only one who finds Mike Pence scarier than Trump who owes Russia?

Never deal with people who are seriously invested in the idea of an afterlife. It sounds counterintuitive, but there are no more dangerous men alive. Same continuum as suicide bombers.

Pence is a serious believer. For reals. I got that from someone who's spent the day with him, at home.

He scares me to piss shivers. Trump's just a con man.

Sleazy deals with Russia vs. Jesus freak govt? No brainer.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

British friend made these observations after attending an energy conference in Abu Dhabi:

Russian connection....1) Trump owes Blackstone/ Bayrock group $560 million dollars (one of his largest debtors and the primary reason he won't reveal his tax returns)
2) Blackstone is owned wholly by Russian billionaires, who owe their position to Putin and have made billions from their work with the Russian government.
3) Other companies that have borrowed from Blackstone have claimed that owing money to them is like owing to the Russian mob and while you owe them, they own you for many favors.
4) The Russian economy is badly faltering under the weight of its over-dependence on raw materials which as you know have plummeted in the last 2 years leaving the Russian economy scrambling to pay its debts.
5) Russia has an impetus to influence our election to ensure the per barrel oil prices are above $65 ( they are currently hovering around $50)
6) Russia can't affordably get at 80% of its oil reserves and reduce its per barrel cost to compete with America at $45 or Saudi Arabia at $39. With Iranian sanctions being lifted Russia will find another inexpensive competitor increasing production and pushing Russia further down the list of suppliers.
As for Iranian sanctions, the 6 countries lifting them allowing Iran to collect on the billions it is owed for pumping oil but not being paid for it. These billions Iran can only get if the Iranian nuclear deal is signed. Trump spoke of ending the deals which would cause oil sales sanctions to be reimposed, which would make Russian oil more competitive.
7) Rex Tillerson (Trump's pick for Secretary of State) is the head of ExxonMobil, which is in possession of patented technology that could help Putin extract 45% more oil at a significant cost savings to Russia, helping Putin put money in the Russian coffers to help reconstitute its military and finally afford to mass produce the new and improved systems that it had invented before the Russian economy had slowed so much.
8) Putin cannot get access to these new cost saving technologies OR outside oil field development money, due to US sanctions on Russia, because of its involvement in Ukrainian civil war.
9) Look for Trump to end sanctions on Russia and to back out of the Iranian nuclear deal, to help Russia rebuild its economy, strengthen Putin and make Tillerson and Trump even richer, thus allowing Trump to satisfy his creditors at Blackstone.
10) With Trump's fabricated hatred of NATO and the U.N., the Russian military reconstituted, the threat to the Baltic states is real. Russia retaking their access to the Baltic Sea from Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia and threatening the shipping of millions of cubic feet of natural gas to lower Europe from Scandinavia, allowing Russia to make a good case for its oil and gas being piped into eastern Europe.

I like this. It's conspiracy stuff, but it connects well.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller

I'm no more thin skinned than most people here, I just follow the rule that when there isn't a point to be made, I won't bother. My views on music engender blather; the discussion doesn't advance.

To the merits of "The trial was in November,": Nuts. In no particular order:

1. If those tax return had been released, I doubt that the 100,000 votes in three swing states that gave Trump his electoral college victory would have gone his way.

2. The facts remain unclear NOW. I assert he has irreconcilable and disqualifying ties with foreign governments NOW. This is an ongoing issue not settled by his election. The adverse inference applies NOW.

3. The elections of 2008 and 2012 did not prevent Trump from fraudulently attacking the legitimacy of Obama's qualification to be President. So the fact that Trump won in November does not, by his prior conduct, settle such an issue.

4. Trump states that only the dishonest media cares about his tax returns...citing his electoral college victory. Trump had not cited any data in support for this statement. There is no such data. It is a fabrication that is is completely and demonstrably wrong. Seventy four per cent of the public disagree:

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...se-tax-returns

5. Before you whine that The Hill is part of an anti-Trump conspiracy,
two recent polls by Pew Research Center and ABC come to the same conclusion. The polls, both released within the last two weeks, show that 60% and 74% of Americans, respectively, want the returns to be released. According to the ABC data, 49% of Trump’s own supporters say he should release his tax returns, as well as 94% of Clinton supporters and 83% of those who stated they had either another (or no) preference for US president.


6. The most popular petition on the new White House website also shows major interest in the returns, garnering more than 200,000 signatures since it was posted Friday—twice the amount needed for an official response.

6. When these tax returns are made public (anyone care to bet if they are made public before the 2016 presidential election?) all of the people like the guys in my Army platoon who voted for Trump will be pissed about paying more taxes than a draft dodging slob who inherited more money than they will make in the collective lifetimes. And the line that "I used the laws of the United States brilliantly" won't have the same appeal.

Those tax returns are coming out. He would have lost the election had they been out in November and he knows it.

Of course. That was the game. He won.

But you can force another game... and yes -- those returns will be exposed.

Careful what you wish for, however. Trump's removal before he has a chance to fail his base on his own will rip this country apart in ways we've yet to imagine. Which might be Putin's ultimate, or alternative, endgame.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller

Since any declaration by me concerning music would be met by contempt, derision and condescension, I'll switch to law and politics.

One of my favorite cases to cite is The Chimney Sweeper's Jewel, Armorie v. Delamarie, 1 Strange 505 (1722). Whenever the opportunity arises, I cite this for the proposition that an adverse inference arises when a party in exclusive possession of something refuses to produce it. In that case, a chimney sweep found a ring, gave it to a jeweler, and asked for an appraisal. The jeweler lowballed the value, and refused to return the stone, returning only the setting to the chimney sweep.

At trial the jeweler refused to produce the jewel. The court held the chimney sweep had superior title, and that damages would be the maximum value of a stone that would fit in the setting. There was an adverse inference against the jeweler who hadn't produced the stone.

We are the Chimney Sweeps. Trump is the Jeweler. The stone is his tax return(s). By adverse inference, his tax returns contain information which would disqualify him from the Presidency. This has both logic and law on the side of the Chimney Sweeps, unlike, just to pick an example out of thin air, the fabrication of Trump's nonsense about Obama's Kenyan birth.

Let the trial begin! Trump has the proof. Let him produce it or resign.

Putin has his taxes already. A pack of profs looking for headlines aren't getting shit.

The minute Trump becomes less useful to Putin, Putin will dox him -- just to throw us into turmoil.