Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Adder

He's a dude. (Also older, richer, more famous, etc)

Do you believe that, or are you describing what other people believe?

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

I don't know about "much of the reporting" as I haven't done a survey, but the original story definitely shows him being a creep. It should not be hard to know a woman isn't into you when she says maybe "next time" or "I don’t want to feel forced because then I’ll hate you, and I’d rather not hate you."

Asking for a bj after someone tells you that she feels like you're forcing her into sex is actually kind of the behavior we want men to realize they shouldn't do. It's not the most egregious example, but it's still on the side of nope.

I'm sorry. But I read her account. Aziz was clearly aggressive. But this was clearly a situation in which two people had very different ideas of what was going on. He did not force her or corner her or limit her movement. He asked again and again. And whether asking for a blowjob after a woman expresses herself the way she did isn't a good idea, she gave him one. So, was he actually misreading the situation? He is not physically imposing. He wasn't exerting power over her career. He didn't limit her movement.

I tend to think the mounting blowback to what people think of is the overreaction of the #metoo movement is fucking ridiculous. But this does not belong in the same category as the other stories we've heard.

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

In less boring topics, Mueller subpoenaed Bannon. What's Trump's next move?

Tweet something outrageous.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

The adversarial system has outlived its usefulness. On the civil side as well.

But what can replace it?

I just suggested something that works within the adversarial system, didn't I?

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Stop being so overwrought. It's unseemly.

I remember when we used to say, stop being shrill. At least, that's what the serious people said.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

The last time I was supposed to meet Thurgreed and another famous ex-GA for drinks, I instead ended up on an emergency evening conference call about last minute changes to the most boring expert report imaginable. I was pretty pissed at the world at the time, but now realize that I narrowly escaped an evening of body shaming, and feel grateful.

You shame your body with those bicycle pants every day. Blaming me for that is beyond the pale.

TM

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Do you believe that, or are you describing what other people believe?

I believe that in any instance where a woman says she felt threatened by a dude, his being a dude is enough evidence that her belief was reasonable and that he had power over her.

I do not believe, as Flower mentioned, that the inherent in balance of power between men and women means women can never actually consent.

I agree with you that this falls short of what should legally be assault. This is a dude being creepy and he should cut that crap out, hear the no and be looking for an enthusiastic yes.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I remember when we used to say, stop being shrill. At least, that's what the serious people said.

I tend to get "angry black man." It's super effective when you want to dismiss anything I've said. And it's ingenious because if I wasn't angry before you said it, you can best believe you're about to experience some anger after.

TM

[Adder]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I'm sorry. But I read her account. Aziz was clearly aggressive. But this was clearly a situation in which two people had very different ideas of what was going on. He did not force her or corner her or limit her movement. He asked again and again. And whether asking for a blowjob after a woman expresses herself the way she did isn't a good idea, she gave him one. So, was he actually misreading the situation? He is not physically imposing. He wasn't exerting power over her career. He didn't limit her movement.

I tend to think the mounting blowback to what people think of is the overreaction of the #metoo movement is fucking ridiculous. But this does not belong in the same category as the other stories we've heard.

TM

I don't think we disagree at all.

But I really can't relate to hearing "I don't want to feel forced" and still trying for more.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

.... nor does it sound like Ansari exploited any power or control over her.

I can't believe I'm getting caught up in this stupid thing but....


I think you make the key point here. The described behavior by him would be properly career threatening and possibly actionable if done by, say, a partner to an associate, or an agent to an actor, or a politician to someone with legislative business, etc....

When done outside such a power relationship and given the ability she had to leave any time, I don't get why its even news. That said, I can't say I've read it all or have any desire to...

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

I believe that in any instance where a woman says she felt threatened by a dude, his being a dude is enough evidence that her belief was reasonable and that he had power over her.

No. She didn't say she felt threatened. She said she didn't want to feel forced.

Originally Posted by Adder

But I really can't relate to hearing "I don't want to feel forced" and still trying for more.

But that can mean, "If you're patient and not so pushy, it will happen." It can also mean, "Back off already."

The whole thing is written in such a way that it's very hard to tell how clear she was being. And I'm not saying she didn't feel the way she said she felt. Something may have been going on in her mind she felt was obvious to her, but wasn't to him. And after she said she didn't want to feel forced she stayed and fooled around some more. He put her hand on his dick a number of times. She doesn't say how long she kept it there before removing it. And she gave him a blowjob after being asked for one.

Everything about this story screams that it was a situation, in which alcohol was involved, in which each person had a very different understanding of what was going on.

Originally Posted by Adder

I do not believe, as Flower mentioned, that the inherent in balance of power between men and women means women can never actually consent.

I agree with you that this falls short of what should legally be assault. This is a dude being creepy and he should cut that crap out, hear the no and be looking for an enthusiastic yes.

How would you categorize a blowjob? That seems pretty enthusiastic to me.

"Hear the no?" Dude, I can count dozens of times when there was a "No" for this, but not for that. Always respected, but a "No" for sex doesn't mean a "No" for a blowjob or heavy petting or whatever else. Similarly, a "Yes" for sex doesn't mean a "Yes" for anal.* Hell, I've been told, "We're not going to have sex tonight" a few times in which the woman then completely initiates sex. Maybe it's about needing to feel comfortable or about control or just changing one's mind. But, her telling him she doesn't want to feel forced and then him not forcing her to do anything shouldn't result in a public shaming.

TM

*I'm looking at you, Kobe Bryant.

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally Posted by Adder

I believe that in any instance where a woman says she felt threatened by a dude, his being a dude is enough evidence that her belief was reasonable and that he had power over her.

I think blanket statements like this are dangerous. Why any instance? Because you're assuming all men are stronger than all women, or is it just something inherent in masculinity that is more powerful that anything a woman has to offer?

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

That wasn't coffee. That was sushi. You may be confusing me with patentpara. Happens all the time.

TM

That was the joke. That patentpara was my sock. I wouldn't forget the sushi - it was outstanding.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I just suggested something that works within the adversarial system, didn't I?

TM

Internal Affairs has been around for a long time in police departments, and the problems you cite still persist. I don't see how adding a prosecutor to the IA dept will make much difference.

I see the problem more broadly as an adversarial system in which winning is paramount to finding the actual truth of a matter. Once you put people on "teams" or "sides," they start wearing blinders.

Our adversarial system has some good elements to it, but it's also a relic, developed in a time when there were no alternatives. We should start considering alternatives or modifications to it to remove the incentives toward "win at all costs" behaviors.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Adder

I believe that in any instance where a woman says she felt threatened by a dude, his being a dude is enough evidence that her belief was reasonable and that he had power over her.

I didn't say her belief was not reasonable. She doesn't seem to have done a very good job of communicating her beliefs, at least until she found a co-writer and Babe.

I do not believe, as Flower mentioned, that the inherent in balance of power between men and women means women can never actually consent.

I agree with you that this falls short of what should legally be assault. This is a dude being creepy and he should cut that crap out, hear the no and be looking for an enthusiastic yes.

If it's not assault, it's because she consented.

It's pretty clear from even her account that he did come around to understanding her POV before she published it. Other than getting all judgy to show that you are a better person that Aziz Ansari, which personally I would have stipulated to if it would have saved me from reading that Babe article, I'm not sure what your point is. Sometimes people have bad dates and don't enjoy themselves.

As Tom Lehrer said, there are people out there who can't communicate. And I think people like that should just shut up.