I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

This is true. Nobody shifted exclusively because they were called racists or sexists. But there is a hysterical left out there right now, making enormous asses of themselves, by labelling anything and everything that disagrees with them racist or a sexist. That sort of childish idiocy - identical in its infantile nature to right wingers calling Obama a socialist for eight years, and birtherism - does the Democratic Party no favors.

Trump is racist and sexist.

This is a problem. And it is true.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

There are numerous reasons Trump won, and I've seen nobody make a credible case any one was significantly greater than the other.

It might be because of all the things Trump said, some of which he has now done.

It also might be because some of those things will do active harm to his voters, who nonetheless like those things because they punch foreigners, Muslims and people of color.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

That sort of childish idiocy - identical in its infantile nature to right wingers calling Obama a socialist for eight years, and birtherism

It's not. That you've, apparently intentionally as we've had this dicussion ad nauseum, kept yourself ignorant on issues of race and gender does not make very real issues of race and gender just like birtherism.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

Sebby's thing mattered too, but there's little the Dems can really offer to get those people on board.

There's little either party could offer anyone fitting into the social liberal/fiscal conservative bucket (and we're most of the country). Who the hell's going to meet at least 85% of these criteria:

Pro-choice
Pro gay marriage
Pro LGBT rights
Reasonable environmental regulation
Repeal of carried interest loophole
Reasonable deregulation of finance
Lower corporate tax rate
Encourage repatriation of offshore corporate money by offering one time tax discount or holiday
Decrease defense spending by 1/3-1/2
Non-interventionist foreign policy
Immigration reform w/emphasis on bringing in skilled, innovative human capital
Massive entitlement and program reform
Repeal of McCarran Ferguson Act to allow cross-border insurance competition
Encouragement of renewable energy and nuclear power
Ban on all surveillance of US Citizens w/o warrant
Disbanding of FISA courts
Net neutrality
Legalization of reasonably safe recreational drugs
Repeal of all mandatory minimums
Ban on private prison management of federal correctional facilities
Repeal of federal death penalty
Cap on federal student lending guarantees at $25k
Repeal of 2005 bankruptcy reform act
Cap top fed individual tax rate at 25%
Adjust progressive tax brackets by location cost of living (so coastal residents doesn't bear unfair share relative to their other expenses)
Repeal Medicare Part D
Allow govt price negotiation with big pharma
Cap gains rate to 10%
Repeal of alternative minimum tax
Make student loans taken out after 2005 dischargeable in bkcy up to 50%

I'm going to be voting third party for the rest of my life.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

It's not. That you've, apparently intentionally as we've had this dicussion ad nauseum, kept yourself ignorant on issues of race and gender does not make very real issues of race and gender just like birtherism.

When you assert everything is about race or sex, as the subjects of what I wrote do, you are being infantile.

Not everything must be seen primarily through those two prisms.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

When you assert everything is about race or sex, as the subjects of what I wrote do, you are being infantile.

This is exactly what I was talking about. Absolutely nobody does this. Your stupid little quotation is a mechanism idiots deploy when they want an excuse for voting for someone for whatever reason who they also know is a racist or sexist.

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Trump is racist and sexist.

This is a problem. And it is true.

Agreed. But he's not everyone who disagrees with the people who throw those charges around so cavalierly. Thank god.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

This is exactly what I was talking about. Absolutely nobody does this. Your stupid little quotation is a mechanism idiots deploy when they want an excuse for voting for someone for whatever reason who they also know is a racist or sexist.

TM

Actually, a ton of people do this. They use those charges as cudgels the moment they see an opening to do so.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Message you wanted to send: I want a third choice

Message you sent: If no one will cater to my entitled ass I'd just as soon let the country go to hell

And yes, I'll happily concede that both statements above are true.

Have you considered, "I want better options"? That was what I was thinking. It's what I'm still thinking. And it's the message I sent.

The parties will know in 2020, when people like me state our refusal to pick from shitty choices once more, we mean it. That's progress. That's how you either improve the system, or take it down.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I'm doing my best over here.

I have much more respect for people with strong views that push them to straddle the parties than for the David Borders who keep charting to the middle. The middle is always shifting, so it takes a true lack of principle to stay there.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

There's little either party could offer anyone fitting into the social liberal/fiscal conservative bucket (and we're most of the country). Who the hell's going to meet at least 85% of these criteria:

Pro-choice
Pro gay marriage
Pro LGBT rights
Reasonable environmental regulation
Repeal of carried interest loophole
Reasonable deregulation of finance
Lower corporate tax rate
Encourage repatriation of offshore corporate money by offering one time tax discount or holiday
Decrease defense spending by 1/3-1/2
Non-interventionist foreign policy
Immigration reform w/emphasis on bringing in skilled, innovative human capital
Massive entitlement and program reform
Repeal of McCarran Ferguson Act to allow cross-border insurance competition
Encouragement of renewable energy and nuclear power
Ban on all surveillance of US Citizens w/o warrant
Disbanding of FISA courts
Net neutrality
Legalization of reasonably safe recreational drugs
Repeal of all mandatory minimums
Ban on private prison management of federal correctional facilities
Repeal of federal death penalty
Cap on federal student lending guarantees at $25k
Repeal of 2005 bankruptcy reform act
Cap top fed individual tax rate at 25%
Adjust progressive tax brackets by location cost of living (so coastal residents doesn't bear unfair share relative to their other expenses)
Repeal Medicare Part D
Allow govt price negotiation with big pharma
Cap gains rate to 10%
Repeal of alternative minimum tax
Make student loans taken out after 2005 dischargeable in bkcy up to 50%

I'm going to be voting third party for the rest of my life.

I started to go line by line, but the Dems, especially of the Hillary variety, are way better on a bunch of those (some, like repatriation, are objectively bad policy too).

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

But there is a hysterical left out there right now, making enormous asses of themselves, by labelling anything and everything that disagrees with them racist or a sexist.

Most people would not know about this so-called hysterical left if it weren't for people -- like you, actually -- complaining about them.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Most people would not know about this so-called hysterical left if it weren't for people -- like you, actually -- complaining about them.

I'm in good company. You can find endless articles on the emergence of victim culture in The Atlantic, New Yorker, Time, Daily Beast, National Review, Slate, etc.

It's the whole crux of the political correctness debate that's been going on for decades.

Shaming, checking one's privilege, heteronormative, etc... this is the stuff of common, everyday commentary and articles one finds in almost any media outlet. These aren't my words, or my fixation. They're part of an emerging culture that is in some ways very good, but can also be exceedingly self-righteous.

But yes, I'm uniquely sensitive to this stuff. I'm of the opinion anyone lecturing to another about anything - anything - deserves the best poor man's Hitchens the listener can muster in reply.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm in good company. You can find endless articles on the emergence of victim culture in The Atlantic, New Yorker, Time, Daily Beast, National Review, Slate, etc.

It's the whole crux of the political correctness debate that's been going on for decades.

Shaming, checking one's privilege, heteronormative, etc... this is the stuff of common, everyday commentary and articles one finds in almost any media outlet. These aren't my words, or my fixation. They're part of an emerging culture that is in some ways very good, but can also be exceedingly self-righteous.

But yes, I'm uniquely sensitive to this stuff. I'm of the opinion anyone lecturing to another about anything - anything - deserves the best poor man's Hitchens the listener can muster in reply.

You're hardly uniquely sensitive to this stuff -- as you say, you can find fellow souls complaining about it in The Atlantic, New Yorker, Time, Daily Beast, National Review, Slate, etc., and that was exactly my point. Mainstream media, conservative and lefty alike, is full of people tirelessly saving us from a few people on the fringe who can't themselves get a platform to reach much of anyone and who would be basically ignored if it weren't so important to people like you to be irritated by them.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You're hardly uniquely sensitive to this stuff -- as you say, you can find fellow souls complaining about it in The Atlantic, New Yorker, Time, Daily Beast, National Review, Slate, etc., and that was exactly my point. Mainstream media, conservative and lefty alike, is full of people tirelessly saving us from a few people on the fringe who can't themselves get a platform to reach much of anyone and who would be basically ignored if it weren't so important to people like you to be irritated by them.

I wasn't writing about media complaining about it (save NR, which clearly does so). Most magazines are just writing about it neutrally, or in the case of Slate, often the NY Times, or Huffington Post, preaching about it.

With the election of Ole Orangehead, we've got a perfect storm of grievance culture slamming into regressive maleness. It wastes fuckloads of ink.