A Friendly Correction for those Man-Haters who Delve to be Single

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

This is essentially my point. But the person with the gun is a uniformed police officer. And we probably disagree somewhat on the percentage of blame.

Let's say I take the El down to the South Side of Chicago. One of the bad parts (not Hyde Park). I walk down the street and start yelling the N word, and then I turn around and walk back towards the El. Wouldn't that be a really stupid thing to do? Wouldn't you call me a fucking idiot? Do I deserve to get shot? No. Do I deserve to get my ass beaten? Probably. Am I partially to blame if I get shot? I think so. No one has a legal basis to shoot me or attack me, but it shouldn't be surprising that my idiotic behavior resulted in such a reaction.

Are you the kind of asshole who tells yo mama jokes to the Pope? Because if so, God help you, you deserve what you get.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

Holy shit -- I just searched that and watched the video. They arrested her for "resisting arrest." How can you claim someone is resisting arrest when you were not previously trying to arrest her? She was talking to her client.

She very intelligently remained professional and calm throughout (she also knew it was being videoed). Balls of steel.

Where's the link? Since when do we have to do our own googling around here?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

This is essentially my point. But the person with the gun is a uniformed police officer. And we probably disagree somewhat on the percentage of blame.

Let's say I take the El down to the South Side of Chicago. One of the bad parts (not Hyde Park). I walk down the street and start yelling the N word, and then I turn around and walk back towards the El. Wouldn't that be a really stupid thing to do? Wouldn't you call me a fucking idiot? Do I deserve to get shot? No. Do I deserve to get my ass beaten? Probably. Am I partially to blame if I get shot? I think so. No one has a legal basis to shoot me or attack me, but it shouldn't be surprising that my idiotic behavior resulted in such a reaction.

The problem in these discussions is people confuse the concept of "blame" with the concept of "defense." In your scenario, you are to blame for doing something stupid (as well as offensive to me, but that is different), that you should have known put you at severe risk. So, yeah, I "blame" you for that. Does that mean that anyone who throws a brick at your head to shut you up has a legitimate defense? I would say no.

If I leave my wallet on the bar with a few 100s sticking out, so I can go outside to smoke a cigarette, and someone steals my wallet, did I do something stupid? Yes. Blameworthy? Yes. But it's still a theft.

And yet, people talk about rape victims differently. First, wearing revealing clothing is quite different than yelling "nigger" in a black neighborhood (or anywhere, for that matter). It is not something insulting, that should incite anger, or that anyone should find offensive. I have a good bit of understanding for the guy who punches you for yelling that in his neighborhood (though it's still an assault) -- you were being an asshole, you were trying to incite anger. I have zero understanding for the guy who says "she was wearing a short skirt and flashing her cleavage, she was asking for it." Zero, zero, zero.

I don't think you can compare the two things -- wearing certain clothes, vs. yelling "nigger" in a black neighborhood. One is simply choosing clothes, the other is designed to incite. You can somewhat better compare the leaving your wallet scenario (I wasn't trying to incite anyone to take my money), but even there, not really -- at the very least, while you could say both are "creating temptation," one is a temptation to take something obviously not so important to me, the other is the utmost personal violation.

But, second, even if you could make the "comparison" -- we have a long history in this country of men asserting "she dressed like a slut" as a defense to rape. As if a woman can give consent by clothing choice.

I can tell my kids not to say the N-word. I have -- but not because it might cause someone to hit them, but because it is offensive to everyone, or should be. I can tell my kids not to leave their money lying around, because it makes it easy for someone to steal and it's a little dumb. But telling my daughters not to dress a certain way, based on the theory that it makes them look available-for-the-raping? Hell no.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Are you the kind of asshole who tells yo mama jokes to the Pope? Because if so, God help you, you deserve what you get.

Francis would enjoy those jokes.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Where's the link? Since when do we have to do our own googling around here?

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...rt-6046088.php


I will bill you a .1.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

The problem in these discussions is people confuse the concept of "blame" with the concept of "defense." In your scenario, you are to blame for doing something stupid (as well as offensive to me, but that is different), that you should have known put you at severe risk. So, yeah, I "blame" you for that. Does that mean that anyone who throws a brick at your head to shut you up has a legitimate defense? I would say no.

If I leave my wallet on the bar with a few 100s sticking out, so I can go outside to smoke a cigarette, and someone steals my wallet, did I do something stupid? Yes. Blameworthy? Yes. But it's still a theft.

And yet, people talk about rape victims differently. First, wearing revealing clothing is quite different than yelling "nigger" in a black neighborhood (or anywhere, for that matter). It is not something insulting, that should incite anger, or that anyone should find offensive. I have a good bit of understanding for the guy who punches you for yelling that in his neighborhood (though it's still an assault) -- you were being an asshole, you were trying to incite anger. I have zero understanding for the guy who says "she was wearing a short skirt and flashing her cleavage, she was asking for it." Zero, zero, zero.

I don't think you can compare the two things -- wearing certain clothes, vs. yelling "nigger" in a black neighborhood. One is simply choosing clothes, the other is designed to incite. You can somewhat better compare the leaving your wallet scenario (I wasn't trying to incite anyone to take my money), but even there, not really -- at the very least, while you could say both are "creating temptation," one is a temptation to take something obviously not so important to me, the other is the utmost personal violation.

But, second, even if you could make the "comparison" -- we have a long history in this country of men asserting "she dressed like a slut" as a defense to rape. As if a woman can give consent by clothing choice.

I can tell my kids not to say the N-word. I have -- but not because it might cause someone to hit them, but because it is offensive to everyone, or should be. I can tell my kids not to leave their money lying around, because it makes it easy for someone to steal and it's a little dumb. But telling my daughters not to dress a certain way, based on the theory that it makes them look available-for-the-raping? Hell no.

I agree with everything you've said.

I wasn't comparing them. My initial comment was a response to Flinty's (joking/trolling) post that said:

"Can someone thoughtfully explain to me why victim blaming is so unequivocally wrong? For example, if I get shitfaced drunk and start flashing cash and mouthing off to people at a dive bar, can I really say I'm blameless if I get my ass kicked and robbed?"

His example did not involve rape.

ETA: I would like to award Flinty one internet for a successful troll. Getting people to bite even when they know you are trolling isn't easy.
________________

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

I agree with everything you've said.

I wasn't comparing them. My initial comment was a response to Flinty's (joking/trolling) post that said:

"Can someone thoughtfully explain to me why victim blaming is so unequivocally wrong? For example, if I get shitfaced drunk and start flashing cash and mouthing off to people at a dive bar, can I really say I'm blameless if I get my ass kicked and robbed?"

His example did not involve rape.

ETA: I would like to award Flinty one internet for a successful troll. Getting people to bite even when they know you are trolling isn't easy.
________________

Flinty's example didn't involve rape, but it was in response to a post mentioning "slut-shaming," so that seemed to be what he analogizing to.

Plus, he's a troll.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

The problem in these discussions is people confuse the concept of "blame" with the concept of "defense." In your scenario, you are to blame for doing something stupid (as well as offensive to me, but that is different), that you should have known put you at severe risk. So, yeah, I "blame" you for that. Does that mean that anyone who throws a brick at your head to shut you up has a legitimate defense? I would say no.

Thus further demonstrating the complete lack of value in assigning "blame."

I don't think you can compare the two things -- wearing certain clothes, vs. yelling "nigger" in a black neighborhood. One is simply choosing clothes, the other is designed to incite. You can somewhat better compare the leaving your wallet scenario (I wasn't trying to incite anyone to take my money), but even there, not really -- at the very least, while you could say both are "creating temptation," one is a temptation to take something obviously not so important to me, the other is the utmost personal violation.

Some people both view men as easily incited to rape by arousal and are seemingly okay with that. This is insane.

[bold_n_brazen]

Originally Posted by Adder

Some people both view men as easily incited to rape by arousal and are seemingly okay with that. This is insane.

Our society has accepted the idea that men are completely incapable of controlling their basest urges, all while expecting women to be responsible for eliminating anything at all that might incite those urges. See, ie, school dress codes everywhere.

[Flinty_McFlint]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

Flinty's example didn't involve rape, but it was in response to a post mentioning "slut-shaming," so that seemed to be what he analogizing to.

Plus, he's a troll.

I know this is just going to infuriate the board again, but I was riffing on the fact that GGG lets his clients do naughty things to him (with consent) and that he ought to be ashamed of that.

To clear the record for the generations after us who discover these boards and learn to know the ways of these socks this year of our lord 2015 AD-ish, Flinty McFlinty is absolutely, positively, 95% against rape. Thank you.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by bold_n_brazen

Our society has accepted the idea that men are completely incapable of controlling their basest urges, all while expecting women to be responsible for eliminating anything at all that might incite those urges. See, ie, school dress codes everywhere.

Yup. Fuck the patriarchy.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...rt-6046088.php


I will bill you a .1.

And it looks like the police are defending that action? In a courthouse?

The guy in the suit needs to be arrested for resisting the Constitution.

Bill me at the detroit address. Thanks, GGG

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Flinty_McFlint

I know this is just going to infuriate the board again, but I was riffing on the fact that GGG lets his clients do naughty things to him (with consent) and that he ought to be ashamed of that.

Look, clients have base urges. I'm not responsible for that.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by bold_n_brazen

Our society has accepted the idea that men are completely incapable of controlling their basest urges, all while expecting women to be responsible for eliminating anything at all that might incite those urges. See, ie, school dress codes everywhere.

Well, we do occasionally get NRBs. But not as often as we used to.

[Flinty_McFlint]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Look, clients have base urges. I'm not responsible for that.

Oh, if it was non-consensual, then I'm very sorry and ask for your forgiveness. But were you wearing a bow tie?