Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

That a fine representation of your belief, but that is not objective truth. And that blurs the lines somewhat into the belief that if you feel victimized, it is assault (which you have heavily implied in your missives about Grace). Whether someone is a victim is an objective standard and how some millennial feels about it is relevant, but not exactly determinative of the conclusion.

And whether a reasonable person would feel victimized is a better standard anyway.

I'll totally agree with this. How I felt about it isn't as critical of a component as whether or not I gave consent. I was assaulted. I certainly did not have the capacity to give consent, and under current objective consent standards, that's a no-go. (I never investigated what the sexual assault standards were in that country, because given my ambivalence about it afterwards, it wasn't something I wanted to pursue.)

How I feel may have an impact if I were able to consent or if doling out punishment or damages. How I feel also has a lot to do with whether charges are brought up at all.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

But Trump came in 1 pound under obese for the height. He couldn't have guestimated that, right?

I can believe 6'1" 239. That's my height with an extra 60+ lbs. Looking at pictures, that seems about right for fuckface.

But whenever I get a physical (once every 3 years?), the nurse measures my height.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

That point is as soon as she feels he has done something coercive, disrpectful or non-consensual degrading. There's no point after she feels victimized where his privacy nevertheless wins out.

I really don't think you disagree with that although you seem to want to reserve your own judgment as to whether she was reasonable in feeling victimized. I get that sentiment - she could be truly off the wall - but I'm deeply wary of deciding that for anyone given that I have no experience at all of being in those shoes.

I don't really think his lack of awareness comes into it, exactly because the point here is that the change we are looking for is that he be more aware.

I'm sorry. Different people feel different things for different reasons. It would be great if everyone could pick up on (sometimes subtle) cues that what we're doing isn't okay. But that's not how it works. And if someone feels like behavior that is acceptable to almost everyone else is "coercive, disrespectful, or degrading" to them without signaling those feelings effectively, we have a problem.

His lack of awareness is definitely relevant. Again, I would love to hear Ansari's side, but even if we think that he was intentionally oblivious, this isn't always the case. Let's start with the caveat that everyone should be receptive to their partner's sexual needs and desires. Now, let's move on to reality. People want what they want. And every sexual encounter necessarily involves exploring what the other person is comfortable with (and don't turn that into something overly aggressive). If you only expected to be kissed, a caress of the breast is unwelcome. If you are okay with petting, undressing is aggressive. Etc.

Alert. This is a hypothetical: If all that happened in the story was Aziz cupping Grace's boob at the end of the night while they were kissing, she could describe it as an aggressive grope and could have a reporter write an article about an unwelcome and non-consensual assault. Aziz might describe it as getting shut down. Is she "truly off the wall?" Has he committed sexual assault? Should we be reading an article about that interaction?

You can't just throw up your hands and say, "I've never experienced this so the only thing that counts is how she felt about it." Sometimes that feeling is flat out wrong. Sometimes it's muddled by other signals sent. Sometimes it's unclear for other reasons. And your partner's ability to read those cues (understanding that blowing through clear cues is a problem) is most certainly relevant.

Originally Posted by Adder

Huh. I think it's exactly the opposite. I think it's that he doesn't expect privacy that he needs to be particularly careful to find someone who will afford him unexpected consideration.

I think this is absolutely ridiculous. But, if that's your opinion, that's your opinion.

Originally Posted by Adder

I guess I think that's what "expect" ⎌means.

I know people are fucking stupid. If I look for someone who I'm attracted to who is smart, I have an expectation that they be smart. I know people are cruel and selfish. If I find someone I like, I have an expectation that they be kind and generous. Stop being an obtuse jackass.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

In my book, it's never assault unless you feel victimized.

You're book is flawed because your only standard is how one person feels. You have no objective standards, which makes your book useless.

In a world in which being too drugged to give consent is a standard, your ability to look at Sebby's story and determine after the fact that there was no harm, no foul because he didn't feel victimized is absolutely ridiculous. If she did the same thing to someone else the next night and the guy found out about it the following day and felt victimized, then you'd be all about the victim's feelings? Man, kick rocks.

TM

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

You're book is flawed because your only standard is how one person feels. You have no objective standards, which makes your book useless.

TM

Please stop talking to Adder about this. His heart is in the right place, but his logic is so warped that we have long since exhausted the possibility of having helpful conversations with him about this subject. And if I never have to think about someone reluctantly blowing Ansari again, it will still be too soon.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

I can believe 6'1" 239. That's my height with an extra 60+ lbs. Looking at pictures, that seems about right for fuckface.

Nah. I'm 6', 205. There is no way Trump only weighs 34 pounds more than I do. No chance.

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

But whenever I get a physical (once every 3 years?), the nurse measures my height.

Me too. And what kind of doctor performs an examination of the President of the United States and just takes his word on things that are easily measurable and expected to be?

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Please stop talking to Adder about this. His heart is in the right place, but his logic is so warped that we have long since exhausted the possibility of having helpful conversations with him about this subject.

No. I don't understand this bullshit. Since the beginning of these boards people talk about shit to death. Get over it. If you don't find it interesting or illuminating or whatever, stop reading it.

Although his stance is frustrating and sometimes ridiculous, I enjoy talking to him about it. And I appreciate where he's coming from. Not only that, but through that conversation I've read valuable contributions from RT, GWNC, Sebby, and almost everyone else.

I skip over shit I don't care about all the time. It's not difficult.

But because I'm nice, here's something just for you: https://youtu.be/qpAo_XvCQaQ

TM

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

No. I don't understand this bullshit. Since the beginning of these boards people talk about shit to death. Get over it. If you don't find it interesting or illuminating or whatever, stop reading it.

Although his stance is frustrating and sometimes ridiculous, I enjoy talking to him about it. And I appreciate where he's coming from. Not only that, but through that conversation I've read valuable contributions from RT, GWNC, Sebby, and almost everyone else.

I skip over shit I don't care about all the time. It's not difficult.

TM

O.K., keep talking to him about it.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

O.K., keep talking to him about it.

No! You can't tell me what to do.

TM

[Adder]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

And that blurs the lines somewhat into the belief that if you feel victimized, it is assault (which you have heavily implied in your missives about Grace).

You will not be surprised that I do not think that this is a line that its very important to police.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

You're book is flawed because your only standard is how one person feels.

That doesn't follow from what I said and my point was that RT is under no obligation to others to put herself forward as a victim if she does not feel like one.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

That doesn't follow from what I said and my point was that RT is under no obligation to others to put herself forward as a victim if she does not feel like one.

Man, I wish I could respond.

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

If all that happened in the story was Aziz cupping Grace's boob...

TM

Time Out.

I've been out of the game a long time, but...

Never cup the boob. No one wants her boob cupped.

You run a hand up the torso, see if the kiss is getting more intense, and then you lightly, every so gingerly caress the boob.

Cupping it's like weighing it, or gauging its density. Too clinical, or if a produce analogy works, too much like avocado testing.

If Ansari was cupping the boob, I could see why Grace was thinking twice. I mean -- it's nice of him to give free breast exams. But I'm willing to bet Grace already has a very qualified gynecologist.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

I'll totally agree with this. How I felt about it isn't as critical of a component as whether or not I gave consent. I was assaulted. I certainly did not have the capacity to give consent, and under current objective consent standards, that's a no-go. (I never investigated what the sexual assault standards were in that country, because given my ambivalence about it afterwards, it wasn't something I wanted to pursue.)

How I feel may have an impact if I were able to consent or if doling out punishment or damages. How I feel also has a lot to do with whether charges are brought up at all.

If two people are both too drunk to consent, is it dual assault?

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Never cup the boob.

Don't tell me what to do.

Now I gotta go out and find some boobs to cup.

TM