Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Adder

The head of the RNC finance committee (or whatever), a casino magnate, has an alleged history of sexual predation.

Remember when the RNC was calling for the Dems to return all of Weinstein's money?

Gave money to Portman, Rubio, and Toomey, too.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Deep in Clinton country, voters stand by their candidate.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

A protracted shutdown probably increases enthusiasm in parts of the base but loses a significant number of swing voters.

The fact that you enjoy watching it burn doesn't mean others will.

Not only does it not really energize the parts of the Dem base that will already be at record levels of hate-voting, shutting down the government for Dreamers would (i) not work and (ii) energize fringe parts of the Republican base who are currently not very energized by the idiot in office.

Dreamers getting fucked is not the Dems' fault. Republicans are operating the government to benefit .6% of the country when it comes to economic issues and 15-30% of the country when it comes to social issues.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

Yes, and voting for a shutdown on Friday and then to lift it on Monday while the GOP was all over the map on what it could agree to was no better than the fourth best outcome from that conflict. Best outcome: GOP caves and you get the Dream Act. Second Best Outcome: GOP doesn't cave but you've demonstrated resolve by fighting (helping your (iii)). Third best: don't shut down because you know you don't have the votes to hold it.

The fourth best outcome pisses off all sides and tips your lack of resolve and unity to the GOP.

Basically, the Pod Save America guys have my proxy here.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're trying to accomplish. We should shut down the government for an extended period of time to "demonstrate resolve" over a losing issue? You realize that the government employs many people and shutting it down causes tremendous problems, correct?

You're starting to sound like a Bernie Bro. If any of the assholes who are pissed off at Dems over Dreamers getting fucked by Republicans don't vote because of this, then we might as well all set fire to our own fucking houses right now.

TM

[Adder]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I We should shut down the government for an extended period of time to "demonstrate resolve" over a losing issue?

Extended period of time? How about more than less than one week day?

Again, the messaging from the White House was all over the map and there had been a bipartisan deal on the table. You just can't fold immediately. At minimum you need the GOP to make it's "no" clear. They didn't.

And today Schumer said that they need to "focus on the middle class" and can't let the Dreamers "occupy the whole stage." They are losing this, and very badly.

You're starting to sound like a Bernie Bro. If any of the assholes who are pissed off at Dems over Dreamers getting fucked by Republicans don't vote because of this, then we might as well all set fire to our own fucking houses right now.

Light the match. When you only half show up for people you need to be energized to vote for you, you're in serious trouble. Heck, it was one of the reasons Bernie couldn't get the nomination.

ETA: I'm behind on my TAL, but recently heard a teaser with Minnesota DFL chair saying that the Democrat's brand is shit. While he's not great shakes in my book, he's right. The public has no idea what they stand for, because they don't know what they stand for.

And yes, any one of can rattle off some core values, but what are they trying to accomplish? What's the mission?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Not only does it not really energize the parts of the Dem base that will already be at record levels of hate-voting, shutting down the government for Dreamers would (i) not work and (ii) energize fringe parts of the Republican base who are currently not very energized by the idiot in office.

Dreamers getting fucked is not the Dems' fault. Republicans are operating the government to benefit .6% of the country when it comes to economic issues and 15-30% of the country when it comes to social issues.

TM

I find I'm moving to a new and different stage of rage after a year of this fucker. More of my rage is focused on his enablers in the Republican party as a whole. An important question for November is going to be what state of rage we're all in and whether it gets our asses to the polls.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Adder

Heck, it was one of the reasons Bernie couldn't get the nomination.

Other reasons I'd nominate for the top ten reasons Bernie failed being:

(1) years of ineffective work in Washington;
(2) treating minorities with disregard, from whitesplaining John Lewis and Dolores Huerta to his constant lectures on why his economic policies should take priority over civil rights legislation and issues;
(3) that damn finger wag;
(4) disdain for women in general, starting with things like referring to Emily's List as the "establishment" and going on to his support for right-to-life candidates;
(5) his inability to expound on his own policy priorities for more than ten seconds - remember the NY Daily New Interview?;
(6) the assholes who supported him, especially the misogynists;
(7) his inability to gain traction in large primary states where he had to appeal to more than 5% of the total electorate;
(8) his ego-maniacal priority on filling stadiums rather than organizing votes (which he does know how to do - he was capable of running a 50 state field organization but chose not to);
(9) his reliance on a narrow group of policy and political advisors, and inability to build out his thought-leader network;
(10) his lack of transparency, such as refusing to release his tax returns;
(11) his hypocrisy in doing things like promising to release his returns "when Jane got back to Vermont" and criticizing Clinton for things he was guilt of; and don't forget
(12) losing the debates.

But those are just my nominees - sorry I couldn't keep it to ten. I'm sure others have some thoughts. Bernie was a mediocre candidate whose greatest strengths were nothing more than Clinton's weaknesses.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Other reasons I'd nominate for the top ten reasons Bernie failed being:

(1) years of ineffective work in Washington;
(2) treating minorities with disregard, from whitesplaining John Lewis and Dolores Huerta to his constant lectures on why his economic policies should take priority over civil rights legislation and issues;
(3) that damn finger wag;
(4) disdain for women in general, starting with things like referring to Emily's List as the "establishment" and going on to his support for right-to-life candidates;
(5) his inability to expound on his own policy priorities for more than ten seconds - remember the NY Daily New Interview?;
(6) the assholes who supported him, especially the misogynists;
(7) his inability to gain traction in large primary states where he had to appeal to more than 5% of the total electorate;
(8) his ego-maniacal priority on filling stadiums rather than organizing votes (which he does know how to do - he was capable of running a 50 state field organization but chose not to);
(9) his reliance on a narrow group of policy and political advisors, and inability to build out his thought-leader network; and don't forget
(10) losing the debates.

But those are just my nominees. I'm sure others have some thoughts. Bernie was a mediocre candidate whose greatest strengths were nothing more than Clinton's weaknesses.

Bernie was an unrealistic candidate. ...But so was someone else.

Bernie didn’t win the debates. He remained unelectable afterward. But he did beat Hillary Clinton. And he kneecapped the hell out of her ability to win the election.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Bernie was an unrealistic candidate. ...But so was someone else.

Bernie didn’t win the debates. He remained unelectable afterward. But he did beat Hillary Clinton. And he kneecapped the hell out of her ability to win the election.

He did kneecap her in a lot of ways. After Super-Tuesday, when he was done, he played for the Hail Mary and ground her down, piggybacked off of all the Republican attacks, so she took the same total BS from both the right and the self-described left. He did things like gutted her ability to make Trump's tax returns an issue the way Romney's had been, by refusing to release his own.

Hillary lost by little enough so that it's easy to find things done differently that might have won it. But Bernie and the third party vote that resulted from his BS are a big piece of it.

Was Hillary the Dem's best candidate? Probably not, but the only test we've got are the primary/caucus process. Interestingly, the person who has done the most to make sure that process sees no material change is Bernie, who may be the beneficiary of it's biases next time.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Other reasons I'd nominate for the top ten reasons Bernie failed being:

(2) treating minorities with disregard, from whitesplaining John Lewis and Dolores Huerta to his constant lectures on why his economic policies should take priority over civil rights legislation and issues;
(4) disdain for women in general, starting with things like referring to Emily's List as the "establishment" and going on to his support for right-to-life candidates;
(7) his inability to gain traction in large primary states where he had to appeal to more than 5% of the total electorate;

You realize that these are among the things I was referring to, right?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're trying to accomplish. We should shut down the government for an extended period of time to "demonstrate resolve" over a losing issue? You realize that the government employs many people and shutting it down causes tremendous problems, correct?

This reminds me, and not in a good way, of an anecdote from All The President's Men that Deep Throat tells Bob Woodward:

I was at a party once, and, uh, Liddy put his hand over a candle, and he kept it there. He kept it right in the flame until his flesh was burned. Somebody said, “What’s the trick?” And Liddy said, “The trick is not minding.”

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

Extended period of time? How about more than less than one week day?

Again, the messaging from the White House was all over the map and there had been a bipartisan deal on the table. You just can't fold immediately. At minimum you need the GOP to make it's "no" clear. They didn't.

Bullshit. If you don't think they didn't know exactly what the Republicans were doing, you're crazy. Republicans sure do want to appeal to a broader audience (which obviously includes the Latino vote going forward), but they don't want to take a stand on it. Ever.

Dragging this shit out for 2 weeks yields fucking nothing other than "Dems shut down government for foreigners," which is all that fits in the minds of our dumbass electorate.

Originally Posted by Adder

And today Schumer said that they need to "focus on the middle class" and can't let the Dreamers "occupy the whole stage." They are losing this, and very badly.

What? Losing what? They aren't in a position to force anything. We lost when we lost control of all branches of government. There is no winning. There is only framing this as something the Republicans are doing, because that's the truth. And you and all the other Dems acting like Schumer is fucking it up are muddying that message.

Originally Posted by Adder

Light the match. When you only half show up for people you need to be energized to vote for you, you're in serious trouble. Heck, it was one of the reasons Bernie couldn't get the nomination.

Bullshit.

Originally Posted by Adder

ETA: I'm behind on my TAL, but recently heard a teaser with Minnesota DFL chair saying that the Democrat's brand is shit. While he's not great shakes in my book, he's right. The public has no idea what they stand for, because they don't know what they stand for.

I'm so fucking sick of this bullshit.

There IS no easy fix for this. Being a Democrat and building means different things to different people. Having a single, clear message that works for union workers in PA, solar panel installers in CA, and miners in NM is impossible. It's not as easy as "Hate the Other and NO to taxes." When the message is complex it necessarily cannot please everyone. This constant criticism of the Democratic Party for not just coming up with a clear message is fucking stupid. If it were so easy, we'd have had 100 suggestions by now, wouldn't we?

Originally Posted by Adder

And yes, any one of can rattle off some core values, but what are they trying to accomplish? What's the mission?

The mission right now is to remove the assholes from office who are destroying this country. I'm not sure it gets any more straightforward than that. And if you (the general "you") can't get behind that, then you're an asshole.

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

He did kneecap her in a lot of ways. After Super-Tuesday, when he was done, he played for the Hail Mary and ground her down, piggybacked off of all the Republican attacks, so she took the same total BS from both the right and the self-described left. He did things like gutted her ability to make Trump's tax returns an issue the way Romney's had been, by refusing to release his own.

Hillary lost by little enough so that it's easy to find things done differently that might have won it. But Bernie and the third party vote that resulted from his BS are a big piece of it.

Was Hillary the Dem's best candidate? Probably not, but the only test we've got are the primary/caucus process. Interestingly, the person who has done the most to make sure that process sees no material change is Bernie, who may be the beneficiary of it's biases next time.

I still think when the serious history book is written, Bernie will have been the ultimate deciding factor. He was Trump’s co-cheerleader for populism. And populism turned the Democratic blue collar vote in the Rust Belt for Trump (because those folks liked Bernie’s candor, but couldn’t vote for a “communist.”)

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

There IS no easy fix for this. Being a Democrat and building means different things to different people. Having a single, clear message that works for union workers in PA, solar panel installers in CA, and miners in NM is impossible. It's not as easy as "Hate the Other and NO to taxes." When the message is complex it necessarily cannot please everyone. This constant criticism of the Democratic Party for not just coming up with a clear message is fucking stupid. If it were so easy, we'd have had 100 suggestions by now, wouldn't we?

TM

You’ve never tried a case. The hardest thing for anyone to do is satisfy the common man.

And yet, if you want to win, keeping it simple for the stupid is not optional.

This is Idiocracy (and I’m not talking solely about the right). Play to the lowest common denominator or don’t play.

I don’t like it. I fucking hate it. But that’s the reality. Complex messages fail.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

You’ve never tried a case. The hardest thing for anyone to do is satisfy the common man.

And yet, if you want to win, keeping it simple for the stupid is not optional.

This is Idiocracy (and I’m not talking solely about the right). Play to the lowest common denominator or don’t play.

I don’t like it. I fucking hate it. But that’s the reality. Complex messages fail.

I'm not arguing with any of this. I'm saying no such message exists.

TM