Towards A Virtual Williamsburg!

[dtb]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I'm not advocating for laws to address it. But it seems clear that teacher and admin intervention does little to nothing, especially when so much of it springs from online activity.

I'm sure you understand that this type of labeling doesn't just occur when a girl hooks up with a guy "too early." The causes are many, including refusing to hook up on demand, not being interested at all, or just being unliked. Labeling a girl a slut is about a boy exerting power over her.

Again, I haven't said shit about laws. But I don't think you understand the extent of how this problem has grown. It just isn't like anything you or I experienced growing up. And, although it doesn't always end in suicide, it is a huge problem.

TM

I agree 100% with all of this. Surely there are options for addressing the issue that are neither hiding one's head in the sand or passing laws about it (the straw man Sebby offered up.)

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I was wrong. The anti-bullying alarmists aren't seeking to pass laws against it. They have already done so: http://www.stopbullying.gov/laws

And given the rule no self-righteous zealot is ever satisfied, we can expect a whole lot more where that came from... Clogging already understaffed police departments and courts with ridiculous technical claims.

I don't see "kids will be kids" as macho bullshit. The worst bullying doesn't involve men at all. In almost every horror story about bullied kids killing themselves, the culprits are female. Guys will physically attack each other, or talk shit to one another, but the conflict has an end. They ague, fight, and it's over. Girls never forget. They never let go. The torture persists indefinitely, passive-aggressively, and corrosively over weeks, months, and even years. The real face of bullying is a female between 9 and 18.

Your sex should be better than that.

Yeah, we really don't need to get the police involved. But they better stay the fuck out of things if I beat the living sit out of some punk who makes my little girl cry. That's a much better way of dealing with it.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by dtb

I agree 100% with all of this. Surely there are options for addressing the issue that are neither hiding one's head in the sand or passing laws about it (the straw man Sebby offered up.)

There was a group of seventh graders in my daughter's school who were mercilessly bullying one of her sixth grade friends, calling him, "faggot," threatening him and hitting him on the bus. This isn't so different than what people went through when I was a kid, but that shit wasn't acceptable then either. No one should have to deal with that shit. They resolved it by putting an adult monitor on the bus.

TM

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

http://www.businessinsider.com/ashle...awsuit-2013-11

Let's go make us some money.

Hardest part will be finding the married male plaintiff willing to act as class rep.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Recent as in last two or three hundred years? Quarantines go way, way back, of course, but I think the development of the smallpox vaccine at the end of the 18th century put government public health measures on steroids.

With the puritan influence, Massachusetts had a history from 1620 on of regulating all sorts of things that would surprise us now, all for the greater good and the spiritual and physical health of the community. We had laws on what could be eaten, what could be worn, and what could be read, all in the name of preventing bad behavior.

We have had rules and prohibitions on certain behaviors and relationships to prevent bad behavior, ensure the moral compass of society didn't get thrown off course, and to make sure we all went to Heaven as long as there has been human society.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

The John Snow reference was to 1854 and the mark of modern epidemiology.

He was the whack job who suggested it would be a good idea to wash one's hands before plunging them into open wounds, right?

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

This is lamentable, and should be stopped through intervention of teachers, school admin, etc. Not by passing another fucking law that'll wind up having all sorts of negative unintended consequences.



This is a tricky one. I'll admit, it is hard to change the behavior of someone dumb enough to shame a girl for hooking up with him, thus likely precluding future hook ups. A guy who doesn't grasp that he's screwing up his own good thing is probably hopeless.



Neither do I. But I know we've got more important shit to address as a nation. And more silly laws and zero tolerance ordinances are the last things we need.

You're right, it isn't a national problem. It's usually a simple case of assault, for which the bully ought to be tossed in a cell with some real tough guys for a few days.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

You're right, it isn't a national problem. It's usually a simple case of assault, for which the bully ought to be tossed in a cell with some real tough guys for a few days.

Creating an even angrier super-bully? That ain't the answer.

TM

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Creating an even angrier super-bully? That ain't the answer.

TM

I don't really know what the answer is, TM. I am thinking that with many bullies, an object lesson that they aren't the biggest, baddest motherfucker on the playground may be exactly what they need.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

I don't really know what the answer is, TM. I am thinking that with many bullies, an object lesson that they aren't the biggest, baddest motherfucker on the playground may be exactly what they need.

You're talking shit at Thurgreed, aren't you?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I think, once again, that you're just making shit up. Bullying of gay boys is very common and results in all sorts of fucked up shit, including suicide. And gay boys are, in fact, boys.

And the fact that girls kill themselves due to bullying is often linked to bullying performed by boys (see my last post) labeling them whores.

TM

A "macho" kid was routinely telling my nephew (who I would guess is gay but has not necessary self-identified as such) that he would beat the shit out of him in the gym locker room.

Ah, kids will be kids. Nothing to worry about here. I'm ashamed of my sister for coddling her son and not letting him learn the "life is tough" lesson -- y'know, the way Matthew Shepard did.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

This is lamentable, and should be stopped through intervention of teachers, school admin, etc. Not by passing another fucking law that'll wind up having all sorts of negative unintended consequences.

You: "This isn't really about laws, but the public schools can handle it."

Me: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

A "macho" kid was routinely telling my nephew (who I would guess is gay but has not necessary self-identified as such) that he would beat the shit out of him in the gym locker room.

Ah, kids will be kids. Nothing to worry about here. I'm ashamed of my sister for coddling her son and not letting him learn the "life is tough" lesson -- y'know, the way Matthew Shepard did.

What did your sister do?

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

It's a public health thing, which is also a fairly recent development. I'm for public health, as various letters behind my name can attest. Small pox and (most) polio and a variety of other awful diseases have been eradicated because of public health efforts, and many, many health problems are behavior based these days.

I was all in favor of public health when that's what it was. Prevention of cholera by not shitting in the well is something I can get behind. Prevention of suicide, not so much. There's miles of moral distance between majoritarian limitations on freedom to prevent incurable communicable diseases and those which are for the benefit of the unfortunate invalid him/herself. I certainly don't want to sound like a libertarian kook, but there is no conceptual limit to the idea of behavior-based public health measures if "public" means "every member of the public individually." At least with second-hand smoke there's a health risk TO THE PUBLIC, but my cheeseburger ain't putting out fumes.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by dtb

Surely there are options for addressing the issue that are neither hiding one's head in the sand or passing laws about it (the straw man Sebby offered up.)

Originally Posted by taxwonk

I don't really know what the answer is, TM.

This represents the best thinking on the issue — the acknowledgment that it is complicated and hard and there are no obvious solutions. But I guarantee that the comment section of your local newspapers will be filled with self-congratulatory clucking after the next suicide: the parents must have known something; the school should have done more; the friends should have reached out. But every bad outcome will be taken as evidence that more could have been done. Newsflash: Bullying wasn't "tolerated" in our generation or any other — it's just that they years before reached the conclusion we'll soon reach again: neither the police, nor expulsion, nor peer counseling, nor duking it out makes any difference toward prevention. The only cure is the passage of time, and some cases will always be incurable.