Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

I think she does need to raise her sensitivity and awareness on these issues, and avoid falling into the tropes and stereotypes, just as she would resent those who apply tropes and stereotypes about Muslims to her.

At the same time, I'm more concerned than ever about the path Israel is going down these days, and that there is a deep affinity between the racists of the Israeli right and the racists of the Christian right in the US that should get more attention, and that the increasingly partisan shape of organizations like AIPAC needs to be seen as a problem. And it is almost impossible to discuss those issues in the US without being charged with antisemitism; it is easier to talk with my Israeli friends about the racism of Netanyahu and his supporters than it is just about anyone in the US.

On Omar, why is it her duty to show concern for the eggshell audience member? If she has that duty, then equity seems to suggest the audience has a duty to not be so sensitive. What she said was a fair criticism and can only be offensive if you read it with a strong desire to find bigoted intent. That’s not her problem. That’s the offended person’s problem.

Re Israel, they’re just becoming less tolerant and more nationalistic... like almost every other nation.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Lots of good stuff here (says the long-time fan of Delong, but he seems to be having a moment).

The D Left has no interest in hearing the D centrists’ critiques. The D Left won’t listen to the D middle any more than the R Right listens to the R middle.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

The latest GOP talking point seems to be that she is unfit to serve on the Foreign Relations committee and get intelligence briefings. Presumably because she has suspect loyalties...

Indeed. We can’t have anyone in the party valuing candor so highly.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

The D Left has no interest in hearing the D centrists’ critiques. The D Left won’t listen to the D middle any more than the R Right listens to the R middle.

More BS. Do you live in a cow barn?

I have grown up on the left of the Democratic party, but have a lot of friends in the center and have friendly and productive conversations with them all the time. Just as an example, we have the Democratic party spectrum locally with Ayanna Presley, part of the great crew of young lefty women of color lighting up Congress, Katherine Clark, a Pelosi side-kick and freind of the "establishment" left, and Seth Moulton, centrist darling and Pelosi antagonist, and they all work together and hang together quite comfortably, and people like me have supported all of them.

I mean, do you ever think before you write?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

duty

Literally no discussion is ever advanced by the solemn incantation of duties and rights.

What she said was a fair criticism and can only be offensive if you read it with a strong desire to find bigoted intent. That’s not her problem.

In the real world, politics is a thing that actually matters to getting policy done and winning elections.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

More BS. Do you live in a cow barn?

I have grown up on the left of the Democratic party, but have a lot of friends in the center and have friendly and productive conversations with them all the time. Just as an example, we have the Democratic party spectrum locally with Ayanna Presley, part of the great crew of young lefty women of color lighting up Congress, Katherine Clark, a Pelosi side-kick and freind of the "establishment" left, and Seth Moulton, centrist darling and Pelosi antagonist, and they all work together and hang together quite comfortably, and people like me have supported all of them.

I mean, do you ever think before you write?

The article Ty cited suggested Left Ds be given control, and that Centrist Ds give them guidance on how to temper their more extreme positions to appeal to more realistic D voters. There’s a recent example demonstrating how willing Left Ds are to temper their views to satisfy centrists: 2016.

That you have friends in both camps and anecdotes suggesting the Left is willing to soften positions to satisfy centrists means little.

Just two weeks ago the Left shit on the Centrists in the NYC Amazon debacle. There were other factors at work there, but the Left was happy to embrace credit for rebuking centrists in the aftermath.

I’d say my evidence, while not entirely convincing, outweighs your anedcdotal observation. I’m not saying I’m right and you’re not. I’m merely saying your view doesn’t appear validated by recent results or rhetoric employed by the Left.

Recall, a whole lot of Left Ds chose Bernie, and Trump, over a centrist Hillary. AOC also unseated a centrist, by the way. This speaks volumes regarding the Left’s receptiveness to centrist advice.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

On Omar, why is it her duty to show concern for the eggshell audience member? If she has that duty, then equity seems to suggest the audience has a duty to not be so sensitive. What she said was a fair criticism and can only be offensive if you read it with a strong desire to find bigoted intent. That’s not her problem. That’s the offended person’s problem.

Re Israel, they’re just becoming less tolerant and more nationalistic... like almost every other nation.

The exchange of various insults is all politically driven in my mind. Republicans represent places where displaying bigotry against Muslims benefits them electorally. They are trying to win places where taking umbrage about antisemitism might get them track (e.g., Florida). Omar lives somewhere where there Israel is likely viewed very skeptically.

At some point, you need sensible discussions, and cutting back on fodder for the crazies is important, especially with this bizarre fundy/AIPAC alliance going on. I'd like Omar to be part of that discussion, but she's going to do much better if she gets more diplomatic and less partisan about it - diplomacy is hard and requires enormous care with every word you say. It's a forgotten art in DC.

But maybe Israel is also just a third rail of politics and trying to deal with it will just come to no good.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

The article Ty cited suggested Left Ds be given control, and that Centrist Ds give them guidance on how to temper their more extreme positions to appeal to more realistic D voters. There’s a recent example demonstrating how willing Left Ds are to temper their views to satisfy centrists: 2016.

That you have friends in both camps and anecdotes suggesting the Left is willing to soften positions to satisfy centrists means little.

Just two weeks ago the Left shit on the Centrists in the NYC Amazon debacle. There were other factors at work there, but the Left was happy to embrace credit for rebuking centrists in the aftermath.

I’d say my evidence, while not entirely convincing, outweighs your anedcdotal observation. I’m not saying I’m right and you’re not. I’m merely saying your view doesn’t appear validated by recent results or rhetoric employed by the Left.

Recall, a whole lot of Left Ds chose Bernie, and Trump, over a centrist Hillary. AOC also unseated a centrist, by the way. This speaks volumes regarding the Left’s receptiveness to centrist advice.

AOC unseated one of the most progressive Dems in Congress, not a centrist.

Do you know anyone off the board who is on the left? It's clear you don't listen to any of us here, you may want to talk with them about some of this stuff.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

Literally no discussion is ever advanced by the solemn incantation of duties and rights.



In the real world, politics is a thing that actually matters to getting policy done and winning elections.

Omar should stand her ground. She’s not going to be unseated for doing so in her district. And there should be no heresies in politics. Where a politician can get away with challenging a policy of a party based on a logical, rational argument, I’d suggest she has a duty to do so.

Who gets to determine and direct what planks or organizations may or may not be challenged? Isn’t that the NRA’s strategy?

A progressive isn’t much of a progressive if she can’t challenge tired ideas or outdated notions. If an idea or organization cannot bear scrutiny, if it needs protection from debate or criticism, isn’t that all the more reason to expose it to both?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I'd ask if I'm on ignore other than you're replying to what I wrote.

"But from what I see, pushing the Italian guy to the front seems a valid choice." Sure, if you think the way to address racism is to tell stories about white guys, and to reduce black characters to supporting actors. Not saying it can't be done, but To Kill A Mockingbird feels a little dated now, and to pick such an old-stool approach feels retrograde to me.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

The D Left has no interest in hearing the D centrists’ critiques. The D Left won’t listen to the D middle any more than the R Right listens to the R middle.

My Twitter says you're at least somewhat wrong, and maybe the more important question is whether the D Center will listen to a D Centrist (Ed Kilgore makes two) saying it's time to let the D Left lead.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

AOC unseated one of the most progressive Dems in Congress, not a centrist.

Do you know anyone off the board who is on the left? It's clear you don't listen to any of us here, you may want to talk with them about some of this stuff.

Judged against Blue Dogs, yeah, he’d be mildly progressive. But he ain’t no progressive. I believe he voted for the Iraq War!

I’m not discounting anecdotes. But the facts indicate the Left isn’t much for taking advice from the center, particularly on election days.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

My Twitter says you're at least somewhat wrong, and maybe the more important question is whether the D Center will listen to a D Centrist (Ed Kilgore makes two) saying it's time to let the D Left lead.

Only if it can find a way to convince many of its donors it can control the Left. That’s an argument that can be made. Along with arguments that radical Left policies can create more growth than redistribution those donors fear will cost them in terms of lost growth elsewhere and lost individual wealth.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Only if it can find a way to convince many of its donors it can control the Left. That’s an argument that can be made. Along with arguments that radical Left policies can create more growth than redistribution those donors fear will cost them in terms of lost growth elsewhere and lost individual wealth.

Delong says you're wrong. You should read the Vox interview I linked to, and then we can discuss it. If you have read it, maybe we can try discussing what he said instead of pretending we haven't read it.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

"But from what I see, pushing the Italian guy to the front seems a valid choice." Sure, if you think the way to address racism is to tell stories about white guys, and to reduce black characters to supporting actors. Not saying it can't be done, but To Kill A Mockingbird feels a little dated now, and to pick such an old-stool approach feels retrograde to me.

Sure, if you ignore the sentences that follow the one you quoted I do seem pretty shallow.

And maybe it was just a movie to sell tickets and tell a sort of interesting story? It is sort of hard to tell a story set in 1960, without making it real for, you know, 1960?